User talk:Ravingmadness/ArchiveCyanis

Raving, I want to discuss what happens when we attach each-other. I’m not trying to shame or attack you; I just don’t want the history of the wiki to be one of conflict. If at all possible, I want to create a better sense of unity, and to help the wiki be a symbol of teamwork, and overcoming conflict. If we don’t, we’re likely to just keep hating each-other, and coming into conflict, even without talking with each-other. It’ll take some discussion, and might even need us both to be vulnerable, but if we do it, I think that we’ll save ourselves - and others - a lot of trouble in the end. Cyanis (talk) 04:33, 20 September 2019 (UTC) -

I am not sure if i understand all that you are saying. So you want peace? YEs please? How to?

Waited a WEEK for answers to talks and got nothing. I think its fair, when you can decide things within 24 hours i have the same right after a week. Ravingmadness (talk) 11:06, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

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Basically, yes, but I also want to talk about what happens when either of us says or does something that, well, more-or-less suggests that we don't care about the other’s opinion. Or just when we try to discuss things without actually addressing an important part of them. I really believe it's important. In fact, I don't know if we'll be able to talk about wiki stuff on its own unless we do. Cyanis (talk) 01:56, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

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"what happens when either of us says or does something that, well, more-or-less suggests that we don't care about the other’s opinion."

According to you, the person thats not ok with what the other person did, should be banned for a week? Also if someone has another opinion they should be treated as enemy, not as teammate?

If you are referring to a certain thing i did, where you felt ignored since the wiki crew broke apart, please tell me. If i dont know abuot that, i cannot react and i also dont want to work over your head --> hand in hand it should be.

ok jokes aside. can we find a way to avoid that someone DOES things, without checking what the other person(s) think? Especially if those things have a bigger plan behind it, not talking about a new page. We need to talk about what we each see as "minor edit/dont have to consider others" and bigger edits? Imo we should establish a way of letting each other know what we are currently working on/future plans. So if you write a comment to an edit, i couldnt ask you there, without making a new edit. It doesnt seem that you react to talk pages from those articles we are currently planning? Just say yes/no and give reasons, pros and cons, so i can understand your point of view.

"Or just when we try to discuss things without actually addressing an important part of them. "

could you be more clear here please? We cannot talk about the wiki unless we talked about WHAT? :)

To me teamwork means, there is a project/question about how to do things: everyone thinks about how to do things the best way and throws them into the disussion. So everyone should be allowed to be heard. Then the pros and cons can be discussed and in the end hopefully a conclusion can be made.

We always have to consider our -7 hours time difference, so you cannot expect your colleague to give you answer immediatly. But no answer also doesnt mean you should just go ahead, because (that sound harsh, yes) you cant hold yourself for 48 hours? If you plan to do certain changes, plan with me ahead please. I asked you in discord and on the wiki about several things and never got your opinion,fyi.

AGAIN i want to point out 2 things:
 * the thing that started the whole quarrel was about adding glitch stuff to non glitch categories (and now just trying to implement your tree?). I said i dont think the community would be ok with that and i was right (also with other things). I am asking you to give me also what you want from me: to be open to what is being said/having an opinion.
 * I am still somewhat happy that you are here and that i am not alone here. But would like to use the time for more constructive things, then quarreling.

--> lets start here: Do you read my changes? Ithink its important that you also know about what i do, you could use an article or images i uploaded; finding something new in Journey that you didnt know about maybe even.

Did you read my answers to the talks at the pages? Just that i know, if my answers even reach you or if we should use other pages/certain "channel"?

Ravingmadness (talk) 17:53, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

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I'm serious, Raving. I believe that if we don't talk to, and/or about each-other in a nice way, then we're not going to be able to work together. When - and/or IF - we talk about the wiki, I want to do it in a peaceful, polite, and respectful way.

I believe that if we both want to work together, then we're going to have to talk about how we say things (or avoid saying things), before we talk about other things. May we please talk about that, first? I'm sorry, but I think that if we try to talk about the other things first, then we'll never be able to fix the problem that causes all the other problems, and I REALLY want to fix the main problem. I promise I'll talk about the other stuff in time, if we can just talk about how we both say things, first. Cyanis (talk) 22:38, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

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I would like to keep things short and straight, call me impatient. allthough i also type a lot. so maybe that cause you to think i am agressive. and since where you just ignored the group and banned me, i have to say. i took it rather personally and felt very attacked.

So ok. Do you got a guideline for me, on what to say and how? It seems i cannot figure out to talk to you. and i am stll shocked that it was not ok from me to ask the wiki crew.. ?! thats why we made a team, so all could think about whats best? Also i really would like to go on a Journey with you. Now i am really keen on finding out the stuff about flipping your robe (or that of the companion) INTENTIONALLY!! Ravingmadness (talk) 23:03, 23 September 2019 (UTC) edit to above: the "jokes aside" should be one paragraph up. i am not joking about working together and decide things together. Ravingmadness (talk) 23:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

- Last for tonight. Need sleep. I do want to go on and leave the past behind. Maybe you can understand that its difficult to hear, that i should be more respectful and polite, when i met ignorance and agression. That might be the reason why I bring up the past often.

So i hope we are both soon on the same track, talking about our plans and actually discussing them (one thing at a time. i think we all just had many plans and ideas, but this needs to be sorted first).

I am trying to forget and go on, hoping we dont open pandoras box again. Ravingmadness (talk) 00:15, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

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Okay, now I feel like we're starting to get somewhere. Unfortunately, I have to tell you that the list of things to talk about when it comes to how to talk about things is... big. I've been working on it for over 10 years (probably closer to 13 or more), and I still have a lot to learn. It really hurts me to have someone talk bad about how I make mistakes when it comes to how I work with others - even jokingly - because I've been working so hard at it.

This said, I'm not going to ask you to be perfect, or to get it all at once, but it would mean a lot to me if you'd be okay with trying to work on it. That said, I would ask if you would try to be okay if I'm not perfect, too. I tried doing something more aggressive than usual because I was sick and tired of trying to talk things out, for years and years and years, and having it go badly. I know now that trying the bad things I did was even worse than trying to work things out - even if my trying to work things out was not very good - I understand that it must have made you feel like you couldn't freely talk about what you wanted to do, or something close to that. It was wrong of me to do that, I have been feeling bad that I did it, and I'll try hard not to do something like that again.

I'd be fine if we could talk about what it did and how we could maybe do better, if you would avoid using it as a way to say that I am (or was) being lazy, or stupid, or aggressive, or anything of the sort. When you say something like that, it feels like you don't forgive me, and you don't really want to leave the past behind. ...I'm don't that I'm ready to do a journey with you just yet, but I think I would if you'd be willing to let this go.

...I guess that, in short, I would like to start by asking: will you forgive me?

...Also, would you mind avoiding adding new stuff - or otherwise making big changes - before I reply to it? ^_^; I understand if it's really important, but in general, it means that there's more information for me to take in, and I have to really think about how I want to reply. In fact, in this case, I had a reply ready and then I noticed that you added something, so I had to rewrite some of it. I'm not asking never to do it, just... please try not to do it too often? ^_^; Cyanis (talk) 00:53, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

- Hey Cyanis, thought you are waiting for an answer. Just wanted to let you know, today some real life happend and i am not able to form good sentences. Will (hopefully) write tomorrow. Sry :( Ravingmadness (talk) 22:41, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

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Oh. I'm sorry to hear that. =( Take whatever time you need.  I'll keep checking back. Cyanis (talk) 23:42, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

- It really hurts me to have someone talk bad about how I make mistakes when it comes to how I work with others - even jokingly - because I've been working so hard at it.

My least intention is to hurt you and I am sure we can figure ways out on how to work with each other? What we like and don’t like, what we would wish from the other side etc.

''That said, I would ask if you would try to be okay if I'm not perfect, too. I tried doing something more aggressive than usual because I was sick and tired of trying to talk things out, for years and years and years, and having it go badly. ''

I totally understand your pressure about “I want to do something”, also had those important questions on discord and sometimes getting only vague or no answer. Being stuck because a template doesn’t work etc.

Not sure about what you mean with years and years? I think it was less then 2 weeks, where we actually started to get to know each other (what each has in there mind and such).

Assuming it just will take some time (weeks maybe even) until we can figure out the category stuff: Is it ok for you, if we both meanwhile just make articles nicer, fuller, creating new ones if we got enough to say about it? I mean so we can do something whenever we got time.

I might go a bit fast here, but thought about making one article for us to just talk about “questions on how to do”, in addition to the talk pages. So we got my profile to fix our relationship and can separately ask questions or give hints to each other?

''I understand that it must have made you feel like you couldn't freely talk about what you wanted to do, or something close to that. It was wrong of me to do that, I have been feeling bad that I did it, and I'll try hard not to do something like that again.''

That is actually heart warming <3. At times I really got the feeling no one is interested in hearing “what is on the wiki, whats missing, how does it work atm and what is the plan raving was realising for more then 6 months”.

And I guess this caused some unease(?) on my side, everybody wanted to do something, without looking at the actual thing (“oh this page is actually much bigger then I thought it would be”). I got aggressive out of frustration I guess, after trying desperately to help, being denied, had to listen to some weird ideas that sounded like someone is talking about something else and not about the wiki… (not you).

I apologise for being impatient and aggressive at times (it was not by choice, my mind couldn’t take it anymore, felt trapped in a repeating wheel of telling the same things over and over again, it was 2-4 o clock in the morning o0. Communication wise you shouldn’t excuse yourself after apologising, it may help to understand the situation though, hopefully).

''.. if you would avoid using it as a way to say that I am (or was) being lazy, or stupid, or aggressive, or anything of the sort. When you say something like that, it feels like you don't forgive me, and you don't really want to leave the past behind.''

I d say my problem is, that I am not sure yet if I can trust you, its some kind of trauma honestly, all those things hit me pretty hard and costed many sleepless nights. Important to tell you: you are a hard working intelligent person!

The only aggressive thing I noticed was the category changes. I guess most of the “bad things” happened out of desperation, i know you had just the best intentions. We are both very passionate I d say :)

And in that sense, I try to trust and forgive you. If you can forgive me for my uncountable rants. Lets have a handshake and new start?

You remember when I was saying “but I want to be understood”? I think the time has come! Imo it also helps that you are working on the wiki with formatting/articles and such, so you see how the stuff works (and I get the impression at certain things you know them better then me).

About the talkpage edit thing: very sorry about that. It became a long text, I got a call and saved in between, then actually added a WIP at start (at that time you might have read it already).. just chaos. Writing in a word-document now and then just adding and formatting is my way now.

Ravingmadness (talk) 17:01, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

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''My least intention is to hurt you and I am sure we can figure ways out on how to work with each other? What we like and don’t like, what we would wish from the other side etc.''

Thanks. I appreciate that. =) I think it'll probably be a long-running project (^_^; ), but I think it'll be worth it. ^_^

''I totally understand your pressure about “I want to do something”, also had those important questions on discord and sometimes getting only vague or no answer. Being stuck because a template doesn’t work etc.''

Well... it wasn't so much about 'not getting an answer' so much as 'wondering if I even had to ask in the first place.' >.>; I guess I could understand when it comes to the categories, particularly the bigger stuff, but it seemed like we were being asked to ask about things that shouldn't be a big problem - at least, I don't think they're a big problem.

Though I also just realized another part of it... I've kind of been feeling like I haven't had enough control in my life, lately. (Or... I guess throughout most of my life, but lately the feeling has been worse.) When I feel like I have to ask for something that I feel like I should be able to do on my own, without needing anyone's permission, it feels like it takes even more control away from me. I think that's a big part of why I got so frusterated. ^_^;

''Not sure about what you mean with years and years? I think it was less then 2 weeks, where we actually started to get to know each other (what each has in there mind and such).''

Yeah, that... the thing is, when it comes to this, I'm not just talking about the wiki + Wiki Crew. I've had a reoccurring theme of conflict resolution going badly throughout my life. A conflict happens, I try to resolve it, and it goes bad. I try to learn how to be better at conflict resolution, give it another try, and it still goes bad. I try to learn even more about conflict resolution, give it a try again, and it STILL goes bad.

(And when I say bad, I mean BAD. -.-; The whole thing with the wiki + Wiki Crew has probably been one of the better cases, sadly. =

Repeat this process for over 10 years, and maybe you can understand why I was getting frustrated at trying to work things out, and it not going well. -.-; A lot of people talk about standing up for yourself and being really aggressive about it, so I thought I'd give that a try, instead. Well... let's just say that now I don't think that should ever be done if you seriously want to resolve a conflict, and actually fix the friendship. (I mean, maybe it might work in some types of conflicts - it's hard to think of every possible way that things can go, and what might be needed in each case - but I think it's probably rare, assuming that it's really a good idea at all.)

''Assuming it just will take some time (weeks maybe even) until we can figure out the category stuff: Is it ok for you, if we both meanwhile just make articles nicer, fuller, creating new ones if we got enough to say about it? I mean so we can do something whenever we got time.''

I would appreciate that - in fact, I was going to suggest it, too. XD In fact, I was wondering if we could pause the category discussions for now? Or at least, keep it to the small stuff? I'd still like to be a part of the main conversation whenever it happens, but I think that we both need to be away from that for awhile. ^_^; I know I do, at least.

''I might go a bit fast here, but thought about making one article for us to just talk about “questions on how to do”, in addition to the talk pages. So we got my profile to fix our relationship and can separately ask questions or give hints to each other?''

Hold on, let me make sure that I understand. ^_^; Are you saying that maybe we should have a talk page where the two of us - or maybe wiki users in general - can ask each-other questions on how to do wiki editing?

''I understand that it must have made you feel like you couldn't freely talk about what you wanted to do, or something close to that. It was wrong of me to do that, I have been feeling bad that I did it, and I'll try hard not to do something like that again.''

''That is actually heart warming <3. At times I really got the feeling no one is interested in hearing “what is on the wiki, whats missing, how does it work atm and what is the plan raving was realising for more then 6 months”.''

Thanks. *^_^* And you're welcome. =) *offers hug*

''And I guess this caused some unease(?) on my side, everybody wanted to do something, without looking at the actual thing (“oh this page is actually much bigger then I thought it would be”). I got aggressive out of frustration I guess, after trying desperately to help, being denied, had to listen to some weird ideas that sounded like someone is talking about something else and not about the wiki… (not you).''

So, if I understand you correctly, at least part of the frustration was because you were also dealing with something else in your life? If so, I can definitely understand that. I guess we both might have been lashing out at least partly because of something not related to the other person...


 * offers hug, again*

I apologise for being impatient and aggressive at times (it was not by choice, my mind couldn’t take it anymore, felt trapped in a repeating wheel of telling the same things over and over again, it was 2-4 o clock in the morning o0. I appreciate your apology. And because I believe you're sincere about it, I accept your apology.

Communication wise you shouldn’t excuse yourself after apologising, it may help to understand the situation though, hopefully).

Yeah, that's probably true... I might apologize again if I think it wasn't heard (like, if it got lost in a wall of text ^_^; ), but yeah... I think you're right, at least for non-super-extreme cases. ^_^;;;

I d say my problem is, that I am not sure yet if I can trust you, its some kind of trauma honestly, all those things hit me pretty hard and costed many sleepless nights.

Yeah, me too... It sounds like it'll take awhile to fully repair the trust between us. And I think that's fair. But at least it looks like we've both made a good start. What do you say? Do you think so?

Important to tell you: you are a hard working intelligent person!

Thanks. *^_^* I also wanted to tell you: one thing I like about you is that you really give credit where you think it's due - or in other words, you're really willing to thank someone for doing something you like, or say good things about how skilled they are about it. I really do appreciate that.

''The only aggressive thing I noticed was the category changes. I guess most of the “bad things” happened out of desperation, i know you had just the best intentions. We are both very passionate I d say :)''

Thanks. And yeah, 'passionate' is a good word for the both of us. ^_^;

''And in that sense, I try to trust and forgive you. If you can forgive me for my uncountable rants. Lets have a handshake and new start?''

Yeah, me too. I'll try to be patient when you rant and whatnot. ^_^; ...Instead of a handshake, how about a hug? =D

''You remember when I was saying “but I want to be understood”? I think the time has come!''

Oh! So when you were talking about being understood, you didn't just mean in terms of your English? ^_^; Yeah... I know how that feels. =(

And yeah... I would agree. =)

Imo it also helps that you are working on the wiki with formatting/articles and such, so you see how the stuff works (and I get the impression at certain things you know them better then me).

Thanks. And yeah... to be honest, I think that I probably do. ^_^;;; I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, it's just that computer code is one of the things that comes to be fairly easily. And well... I get the feeling that it's not your strong point. ^_^;;;; Maybe I can focus on that, so that you don't have to? ~_^ (And hopefully, we can find something you're good at that I'm not so good at. XD;; )

''About the talkpage edit thing: very sorry about that. It became a long text, I got a call and saved in between, then actually added a WIP at start (at that time you might have read it already).. just chaos. Writing in a word-document now and then just adding and formatting is my way now.''

Ah. Alright, that's understandable. I appreciate the effort. =)

And yeah, that's basically how I do it, except that I like to use the 'modify source' mode, so I add the formatting marks into the word-type document. ^_^;

...I think I should mention that I have issues with social anxiety - particularly when it comes to conflict, or even potential conflict. (Years and years of having conflict go badly can do that to a person. -.-;; ) I might go slow at this because I've been kind of scared to even have this conversation, and it's still been taking me awhile to work up the courage to look.

That said, I'm doing a lot better than I'm used to; it used to take me two weeks to get to reading something that I figured I should reply to, if I could bring myself to read it at all. In fact, I've actually made a lot of progress over the past couple months. Trying to work on the wiki, and trying to work things out with the others, has been really good for me. =)

That said, I feel I should say now that no, I actually haven't read all your stuff on the other talk pages and such. ^_^; (Please don't get mad at me?)  I haven't even had the courage to look at the recent changes page, for the most part. -.-; And what I did see was pretty... hurtful. At least at the time.

(That, and PCJ suggested that I should avoid drama, and, well... that reply you left on the Glossary talk page was pretty, well... dramatic. ^_^;;;; And at the time, I didn't know how to reply to it in a non-dramatic way, so... yeah, I figured it was best to wait for awhile while I tried to see if I could learn even more about conflict resolution. XD;;;;  [I think I finally found the right book, this time! 8'D ])

That said, I don't really want to go back and look at all of what you've written, especially since the wiki says that there are at least 217 changes that I haven't looked at. >.>;;; I might just address some things as I go along and find them, but at least for the most part... would you mind if we sort of 'reset' most of those conversations and sort of start over? ^_^;;;; Metaphorically if not literally? (At least, where appropriate?)

Long one, but thanks for you time. It seems like we've been on the mend and, well... I hope I didn't just say something anger-inducing. XD;;;

See you later? Cyanis (talk) 23:33, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

- Did read already, but too late for me to answer now (actually lucky that i have a messed up sleep cycle in general, 2 am again).

I hope i will find the time to answer tomorrow. Might just first half, but that might mess up our saying-answer-saying flow. Trying to avoid openeing too many topics (already so many :D). And i also would need a break, but really wanted to put the patch notes on front page (and your wonderful glyph article is featured).

It seems there is a misunderstanding about the asking for permission. I hope when i word it better and use examples it will all go up in smoke (this is really a saying? we say something like "will dissolve in happyness"). Good day for you good night for me! Ravingmadness (talk) 00:08, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

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Yeah... feel free to leave out anything that you don't think you really need to reply to. ^_^;

And yes, "go up in smoke" is a saying, but it means "goes really badly and destroys itself because of how badly it goes." ^_^; Cyanis (talk) 20:06, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

- Oh wow. thanks dictionary then.. thats the opposite of what i meant :D facepalm and faceplant...

Ok here now the 7 pages copy paste from worddoc.. and now i see that the cursive didnt transport and mentioned above, word autochanges some signs so the editor here doesnt recognise it :(

Will take another some.. idk. got the feeling i am sitting the whole day on this. Does it also take so long for you? Ravingmadness (talk) 21:08, 26 September 2019 (UTC) -

OMG Cyanis, I copied that and its 5 A4 pages :D (that being said I am not better in keeping it short.. ;)

I will shorten your paragraphs a bit, just so that you still know what I am answering to. Its still very long, but I think if I start cutting words the chance of misunderstandings or sounding rude will raise?

Also the smileys dont transport, nvm then you will get which one it is :) or :(

''I think it'll probably be a long-running project (^_^; ), but I think it'll be worth it. ^_^ ''

Totally! ran into other “journey wikis” and those are abandoned for years and no secrets (other then trophy stuff) is there. I am considering adding our Wiki as “update” to those. I want to do it right now, but not sure about “rights” and pretty sure cant edit front page. I guess I should try to contact the admin of those wikis first and see if I get an answer. If nothing happens for weeks, I might try what I can do there.

''Well... it wasn't so much about 'not getting an answer' so much as 'wondering if I even had to ask in the first place. (this from the end of your answers: … and look at all of what you've written, especially since the wiki says that there are at least 217 changes that I haven't looked at.''

This is the same topic: One project / many people / edits / random editors / teamwork / organisation

Trying to keep this example short: Imagine you founding a company, having to do the paper work and figure how to find certain invoices or mails again etc.

After some time, company grows and then you hire employees. You show them the office and try to tell them where to put the stuff. Now assume they would start doing their own system. You come back after a week and cant find anything anymore, but they say “its much better now and we can work with it”. Only that they don’t know about you had normal customers and those with special prices, for example.

I always wanted to talk about “bigger changes/smaller edits” thing, so everyone has the same in mind, because everyone is an individual and has their own views.

It makes me more calm now, that you now seem to get why category changes without talking might cause a problem. What if in those 200 changes I started mixing everything up? And another editor came and renamed all Creatures and objects, without redirecting the old ones (because they are noob and didn’t think about that).

You d come back to a total different wiki, having to check what was done and finding out why, if it was changed consistent or the others are still working or just stopped what they started.  time and work that could be used better  (see TL:DR at end) 

You changed the cats of 3 pics to the actual correct one (those were not from me and first on the wiki, they just got abandoned I guess). When wiki crew started, I hoped I will finally have people to ask little silly questions.

Like “I want to put those 3 pics to the level image category, but ALSO want to keep them in Journey, so they are seeable there and we might add 2-3 pictures from every level in Journey then too so we get a nice Gallery. Maybe some little spoiler pictures, so someone might become curious. What do you think?”

The changes were:  Only big thing was that I removed the pics from the non-glitch level-categories. We talked about this and as I said its totally against what this wiki was meant for, also the Wiki Crew said they don’t like it. So imo this is settled?

(side note: actually I should have asked you to revert that and safe myself some nerves and time, but reading your text, I think you are “punished” with many things already. So letting you do those would be insult to injury?!)

Putting the help info for Trophies in spoiler tags. I would have asked if you also think it it’s a good idea… If there is a list of things to do and questions to it, we wont forget about doing it then, so we can wait for the answer?!

Also I created a page that I want to link on front page “Welcome to the “complete” Journey-Wiki”. Seems I cant keep it to a short intro, as I think some things really need to be pointed out. Journey is a very emotional game for most of the players, so this should be taken in consideration. Its more about enjoying it and also make it a nice Journey for your companion. We can talk about that “soft skills in Journey” topic more another time. Made “basics guides” category to separate advanced flying articles (imo not a guide in that sense, its not guiding there, it’s a tutorial rather?) from your first journey guides.

The rest was mostly adding links and information as far as I can remember. It was much, but mostly just little things. As far as i remember.

TL:DR:  “Many changes”  I wish we would have more editors, although it means I have to keep an eye on them. They might not add any categories, not using the standard pattern for some articles, writing about stuff that we already got covered etc.

We got a project where we cant divide between topics (we could say you make the flying stuff, but this wouldn’t prevent that I edit infos in there, when I get them?). So we really need to organise and divide our work, trying to not silently interfere with each other.

We also cannot “avoid” that other people will randomly help on the wiki (its made to be open to edit for everyone).

Its hard for everybody to keep track of changes, we appreciate additional content, but also need to manage it.

Ideas: 
 * If we want to implement something bigger or change things a bit up, or just splitting an article, it will be helpful when we inform us in advance, so we know those changes will happen.


 * That way there is time for the other person to eventually put their ideas in or asking to do it a bit different, understanding the plan of the other.  Extra pointing out I am talking about both of us, not only me.


 * Because the need to know how the wiki looks and what the content is,  so we can link stuff correctly and add according categories without always having to ask and wait for answer where to put it. (or even just leaving it out, letting the other person doing the work)

I think I am more wary about doing things, so I guess I would ask many things to get another opinion and see if its even better then what I thought. If not (in my eyes) I d hope that the other person understands my reasoning or/and comes up with another idea, like a compromise. Imo you are getting a feeling about things that are “just ok to change” and those were you might want to ask back to the colleague, if its interfering with something else.

I guess we cant avoid that sometimes “wrong assumed” things are written on the wiki (happens/ed to me too). But I if I see something, where I am pretty sure its not true, I would remove it (eventually putting on talk page), asking you to have a talk about the thing to clarify. Like together finding out how to word it, or even try the things out in journey.

I have to trust you, when you write about flying, because I am not so good with it. So I hope you can trust me with other things (since I am pretty sure that I got more experience with the game and community).

Since this now already got too long, excuse me for cutting on the rest (also I think you are opening up a lot and its very personal and we are in the open here).

''… that I feel like I should be able to do on my own, without needing anyone's permission, it feels like it takes even more control away from me. I think that's a big part of why I got so frustrated. ^_^; ''

See above, I think its just the same that you want. That someone else doesn’t just randomly starts messing up your work. That you don’t have to check every 200 changes etc. That you can be sure the wiki wont change totally overnight.

With 2 people there always be 2 opinions and they often will be not the same. What you probably don’t like to hear is, that “unfortunately for you” it was me starting the wiki. Not saying I am the boss here now, but I had a certain plan for it and considering the work I already put in there, I d appreciate some respect for that.

If sides were switched, I d probably be very humble and asking how can I help, what do you need etc. I d be excited too, but would always share my thoughts and improvement ideas with the person that claimed the wiki and did the ground work (and also has some knowledge about the game). Out of fear to make something “wrong”, since I want to help and not create more work.

''And when I say bad, I mean BAD. -.-; The whole thing with the wiki + Wiki Crew has probably been one of the better cases, sadly. = ''

I am really shocked to hear that story and also feel sad that you have to deal with such problems and it just doesn’t seem to get better.  For me the situation and the ban was one of the most “weird shocking confusing” moments in my life, I felt like suddenly switching to another dimension, “is this even real and happening?”

So I can see were you come from (everyone is determined by their very own story/experiences) and you might understand me too.

And I am having trouble with dealing with aggression, my stomach starts hurting seeing someone quarrel at the street, ppl that I don’t know even. So I am always up for peaceful ways, often thinking “why cant everyone just be friends with each other”. But that’s not how the world works 

''I was wondering if we could pause the category discussions for now? keep it to the small stuff? I'd still like to be a part of the main conversation whenever it happens ''

Yes, lets fix some other stuff first. We can still talk about some changes, but step by step maybe and not the whole tree.

Also: there are no talks. I d say I didn’t hear anything from soulfly yet and Irie was always more the silent observer (no insult there, she did put in her opinions). '''You are not missing anything, its only us atm I d say. '''

''Hold on, let me make sure that I understand. ''

Thanks for that 

''Are you saying that maybe we should have a talk page where the two of us - or maybe wiki users in general - can ask each-other questions on how to do wiki editing? ''

Not so much the how to, we can make a page where we explain how to use templates (under construction) or which categories to use, '''but that’s not what I meant. ''' Imo there are no other editors, atm I would use a page where we collect our
 * “next to dos”,
 * “want to do”
 * “what do you think about this”
 * “not sure if good that way or other” etc.

Even if someone does a point from the others list, she can cross out that point then, so the other also sees this is done (not only by changes, which doesn’t say if finished).

A bit like the google-doc that we had, to sort things better. So we may talk at each others talk page, but put collect the ideas there (we could even link it somewhere, so IF someone wants to join us, sees whats up currently).

''Thanks. *^_^* And you're welcome. =) *offers hug* ''

Since I got problems with physical closeness.. I ll give you a scarfhug? 

''So, if I understand you correctly, at least part of the frustration was because you were also dealing with something else in your life? ''

I d say it was like, spending time preparing some kind of presentation, sitting at 3 am, eyes burning, trying to form words while getting the feeling no one is interested to hear “whats actually already on the wiki”.

It felt more like “ye whatever you did doesn’t matter to us, we got some nice plans here, listen to us”. And I really didnt understand how someone can think, that it’s a good idea: coming to an almost year old project, ignoring it and starting redoing it ?!?! (wiki crew, all full of ideas).

'' “I apologise for being impatient and aggressive” I appreciate your apology. And because I believe you're sincere about it, I accept your apology. ''

Am sincere, I should be able to hold myself more. I remember when I exploded, when I had the feeling, I was asked the 5th time about a glossary page, when I already said, well someone needs to do it or it will not be there… And when I think about it, I still dont know how should I have handled it? Just silence? I am clueless.

''But at least it looks like we've both made a good start. What do you say? Do you think so? ''


 * scarfhug*

''you're really willing to thank someone for doing something you like, or say good things about how skilled they are about it. I really do appreciate that. ''

I always smile when I see the spoiler/under construction, they are soooo cool and I would never have been able to come to something close to that awesomeness. And I believe we could use more of those (if you are willing to do, we can talk about what we will need).

''Yeah, me too. I'll try to be patient when you rant and whatnot. ^_^; ...Instead of a handshake, how about a hug? =D ''

Thank you for that! I try to not freak out when I feel ignored (that seems to be a trigger for me). See above, no touch pls :D *scarfhug*

''Oh! So when you were talking about being understood, you didn't just mean in terms of your English? ''

Yep it was all about “you are not listening / understanding what I am talking about”. The English might have been an addition, but I cant remember that I got often asked “could you elaborate that in other words/again, I do not get what you want to express”.

''I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, it's just that computer code is one of the things that comes to be fairly easily. And well... I get the feeling that it's not your strong point. ''

Hehe, true that. Due to scriptblocker I even didn’t got that there is a normal edit to the source editor which I used for long time :D I also was so keen on putting some information for PC players up, as I thought that could really make the wiki live/useful. So I didn’t dig into learning more about “how to wiki”, which is bad. I am still happy that the info that was there when PC came out, DID help some people.

And your help there would be highly appreciated, as long as you keep me up to date. I still don’t know what all the catisect does. At start I wanted to flood you with all the stuff I wanted to implement, but couldn’t, but then it also felt like “bleh I don’t want to do this, hey cyanis catch!” I don’t want to order you things, but it would be nice if I can ask you about stuff 

''And yeah, that's basically how I do it, except that I like to use the 'modify source' mode, so I add the formatting marks into the word-type document. ^_^; ''

My word changed the ‘’ to 2 different signs.. 

'' and it's still been taking me awhile to work up the courage to look. ''

Ah now I understand, I thought you are just ignoring me :D Good we talk! And kudos for having the courage, I sometimes had that feeling too when just moving the mouse to “recent changes” fearing some other bold moves :D

''That said, I feel I should say now that no, I actually haven't read all your stuff on the other talk pages and such. ^_^; (Please don't get mad at me?) ''

Not mad, see above, was just wondering IF you are, so I know If I am working on something that you complete dislike or so (would like to know that in advance, before I do it). Like I am also not 100 % with all what you are doing, but I think I can endure it a bit until there is time to discuss/state my opinion at least. And in future we might just talk before or at least leave an explanatory message at mentioned talk page?

''I haven't even had the courage to look at the recent changes page, for the most part. -.-; And what I did see was pretty... hurtful. At least at the time. ''

What did you see that was hurtful? The glitch stuff? That’s another thing why we should take the time to talk in advance, so we don’t hurt or anger each other 

''well... that reply you left on the Glossary talk page was pretty, well... dramatic. ''

Yes pretty dramatic, that time I was still feeling very helpless and not knowing whats going on  But I think we are on a good way, so I might be able to hold myself in future (hopfully). The gloss-talk was some time ago now though, I think you read it after we already started talking here or so..

''XD;;;; [I think I finally found the right book, this time! 8'D ]) ''

I wish for yourself and hope that we can turn around and make this the best experience in your life..

''you mind if we sort of 'reset' most of those conversations and sort of start over? ^_^;;;; Metaphorically if not literally? (At least, where appropriate?) ''

Yep. Agree. If its hard to find or look into my answers from the talk pages to articles, I can try to remember which ones we had open and copy the questions together, eventually rephrasing stuff I said, so its easier to take in. So we get some fast conclusions? Reset yes, but don’t forget about decisions.

''Long one, but thanks for you time. It seems like we’ve been on the mend and, well... I hope I didn’t just say something anger-inducing. XD;; ''

9!! A4 pages.. we really got a problem. Imagine someone being curious and trying to read all that :D poor guy. Those talks feel now like balsam to my soul… Going on a PS3 journey now, will check for answer after or in between. Also thinking about using discord again? Maybe just the wiki channel, but there many conversations can overlap.

I want more wiki work, but atm pretty burnt out. I am convinced that the time we use now to fix the relationship and get some “how to work together” done is time well spent.

Ravingmadness (talk) 21:35, 26 September 2019 (UTC) - maybe the page i meant already exists.. :D --> https://journey.gamepedia.com/Journey_Wiki_talk:Community_portal Ravingmadness (talk) 00:57, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

-

''Oh wow. thanks dictionary then.. thats the opposite of what i meant :D facepalm and faceplant...''

That's okay. I knew what you meant. ^_^

''Will take another some.. idk. got the feeling i am sitting the whole day on this. Does it also take so long for you?''

I don't know about the whole day, but it does take a few hours. ^_^;

"I think it'll probably be a long-running project (^_^; ), but I think it'll be worth it. ^_^"

''Totally! ran into other “journey wikis” and those are abandoned for years and no secrets (other then trophy stuff) is there. I am considering adding our Wiki as “update” to those. I want to do it right now, but not sure about “rights” and pretty sure cant edit front page. I guess I should try to contact the admin of those wikis first and see if I get an answer. If nothing happens for weeks, I might try what I can do there.''

I meant our friendship, but I guess that, too? ^_^;

What other Journey wikis do you mean? May I have a look?

Trying to keep this example short: Imagine you founding a company

Okay, hold it. >.> This is one of the things that I don't like you doing. It's not even just the length (though I guess that's a part of it, come to think about it); it just feels a lot like you're stepping into the role of "the person who knows things" and I'm "a stupid person who needs to be taught these things" - I'm not really sure why, but that's the way it feels to me. =/

I'm pretty sure that at least part of it has to do with what you choose to use in your examples; like, it seems like you often compare something public (available to everyone) with something private (available to specific person[s]), and things like that, so it feels like the stories that you use aren't really good examples of what's really going on - at least to me. =/ Like when you were comparing the category sorting to someone coming your private photo album and changing everything around; it made me want to say something like "THE WIKI IS NOT YOUR PRIVATE PHOTO ALBUM!!! >____<"  (I could also say a lot about not leaving your personal digital content unprotected so that anyone can change it. ^_^;  No one should be able to do that without hacking, which is part of why that story bothered me: categories are open so that anyone can change them; you can't restrict categories without restricting the pages in them.)

And actually, I do wonder if maybe you feel a little too attached to the wiki as 'your own' thing. Like, maybe you're so used to working on the wiki on your own, and working on your own ideas, that it actually feels uncomfortable allowing others' ideas. =/ Like, you've often told me that I'm not alone on the wiki, and that now we have a group that we can talk to about ideas, and come to a conclusion on them as a group, but I wonder if maybe you're having trouble truly accepting that idea, yourself?  Like, one of the things that I think I mentioned once was that it seems like more-or-less any time someone had an idea to change something, you would say that, no! They need to understand why you did it the way you did! But the thing is, as far as I can remember, you've made few, or no attempts to understand why anyone else wants to do it the way that they do, and even though the rest of us haven't been working on the wiki for as long, I think that their opinions are still just as valid. (Heck... it's even on the help wiki. ^_^; )

I could go on, but I think it's better to tackle this in smaller pieces. I guess what I'm asking is to think about how you're really feeling about the issue? If you really do feel that way, then I think it might be one of the main problems why we've been having trouble getting along as a team. Whatever the case, I do feel like we both view the wiki differently, and I think that we'll need to try and work on that, and try to get to a shared view of it, before we can really work on it in a larger scale.

I know that it might be uncomfortable, but I really believe that you need to examine your feelings on this. =) If there's any chance that it might be the real problem, then we'll need to take a look at it and try to address it.

And until we can get into a shared view on things... please try not to bite the newcomers? ^_^;;;

''And I am having trouble with dealing with aggression, my stomach starts hurting seeing someone quarrel at the street, ppl that I don’t know even. So I am always up for peaceful ways, often thinking “why cant everyone just be friends with each other”. But that’s not how the world works :(''

Yeah... You may sometimes hear people talking about "just getting along," but... I'm not sure there really is such a thing. =( The way I see it, getting along with people is HARD. -.-;

But... that's why I put so much effort into learning how, I guess. And from my experience, it's worth the effort. =) I do think that a lot more can be done to try and teach people these things, but, well... might as well start with us, I suppose. ^_^;

''Not so much the how to, we can make a page where we explain how to use templates (under construction) or which categories to use, but that’s not what I meant. Imo there are no other editors, atm I would use a page where we collect our


 * “next to dos”,
 * “want to do”
 * “what do you think about this”
 * “not sure if good that way or other” etc.

Even if someone does a point from the others list, she can cross out that point then, so the other also sees this is done (not only by changes, which doesn’t say if finished).

A bit like the google-doc that we had, to sort things better. So we may talk at each others talk page, but put collect the ideas there (we could even link it somewhere, so IF someone wants to join us, sees whats up currently).''

IN-DOCUMENT EDIT: Seems like you already beat me to suggesting the Community Portal talk page. XD But yeah, I think that we could probably use that. =3

And yeah... I think that Google Doc got a little too messy and disorganized. ^_^; It would probably help to start fresh on that front.

As for trying not to step on each-other's toes when editing a page, that's part of what I made the Under Construction template for. =3 ...I'd hope that it could help fill that need. ^_^;

It felt more like “ye whatever you did doesn’t matter to us, we got some nice plans here, listen to us”.

That's pretty much how it felt to me when you talked the way you did about my ideas. =( One of the things that I've been reading about is how, if anyone feels like their ideas are being threatened or rejected, then it really kills teamwork, especially the free sharing of information.  (The help wiki also talks about that. ^_^; ) It seems like the book I mentioned is focussed on how to avoid things like that, and how to get people to have a 'shared pool of information.'  I think I might be able to help us get to that "shared pool," if you give me a chance. ^_^;

''And I really didnt understand how someone can think, that it’s a good idea: coming to an almost year old project, ignoring it and starting redoing it ?!?! (wiki crew, all full of ideas).''

I'm going to reference that page again. ^_^; (I only just found it, but it seems like to have a lot of good stuff.)

"Remember, the wiki may have a set of rules and standards and traditions, but they must not be applied in such a way as to thwart those newcomers who take that invitation at face value. It is entirely possible for a newcomer to this site to bring a wealth of experience from other venues, together with ideas and creative energy which, current rules and standards notwithstanding, may further improve the community and end product. It may be that the rules and standards need revising or expanding; some of what the newcomer seems to be doing "wrong" at first may prove to actually improve the wiki. Observe for a while and, if necessary, ask what the newcomer is about before defining what he/she is doing as "wrong" or "substandard"."

Since that's a little tricky to read, I'll see if I can paraphrase: even though a newcomer might be new to the wiki, they might still have a lot of stuff to bring, based on their experiences. It's possible that what they have to bring will go against what you already have - including whatever rules you might have - and it may turn out that what needs to be updates are the rules, not the newcomers' ideas and/or attitudes.

Not to say that it's always the case, but I think it's worth considering, and keeping in mind that it might be the case. ^_^; Just because it's older, doesn't mean it's better; same thing if it's newer (it doesn't always mean that it's better).

And yes, I think that there's a good chance that we'll have to do a lot of changes with the categories and how the pages are sorted out and whatnot. And if we do, then we will have to get used to it, and the differences will be weird, at least for awhile. That's just the way it goes when a change is made, including a change that you make, yourself.

I really think that, to matter how we do it, the changes are going to surprise someone, and there will be some relearning to do, but I don't think that should keep us from trying to make changes at all. =)

''Since I got problems with physical closeness.. I ll give you a scarfhug?''

I'll admit that this surprises me since you keep using the "Hug" emoji on Discord. o.O But... sure? I guess? ^_^; \*scarfhug/dance* =3

''Yep it was all about “you are not listening / understanding what I am talking about”. The English might have been an addition, but I cant remember that I got often asked “could you elaborate that in other words/again, I do not get what you want to express”.''

I thought that happened a lot. o.O It seemed like usually, when we asked you to clarify, you would get upset and huff for a bit. ^_^;;; It made it feel like all the pressure was on us for understanding to happen (at least to me). ^_^;;;

But at any rate, if I ask you to do that... would you please try to be patient with me? ^_^;;;;;

''And your help [with coding] would be highly appreciated, as long as you keep me up to date. I still don’t know what all the catisect does. At start I wanted to flood you with all the stuff I wanted to implement, but couldn’t, but then it also felt like “bleh I don’t want to do this, hey cyanis catch!” I don’t want to order you things, but it would be nice if I can ask you about stuff''

Yeah, please don't flood me with stuff. ^_^; I guess I can try to keep you up to date - if you don't understand my explanations, please ask for clarification. ^_^;;;

And yes, if you would please ask. =)

My word changed the ‘’ to 2 different signs..

Yeah, I had to change my settings, but once I did, it really helped me a lot. ^_^

Ah now I understand, I thought you are just ignoring me :D

Yeah, that's kind of the impression that I was getting. ^_^;

Good we talk!

I agree. ^_^

And kudos for having the courage, I sometimes had that feeling too when just moving the mouse to “recent changes” fearing some other bold moves :D

Sorry about that. ^_^; I'll try to be bold in smaller steps, so you can keep up with them. ;3

And in future we might just talk before or at least leave an explanatory message at mentioned talk page?

I don't think an explanatory message will always be needed, but yeah, if we're replying to something that wasn't in the talk pages, at least. ^_^;

''What did you see that was hurtful? The glitch stuff? That’s another thing why we should take the time to talk in advance, so we don’t hurt or anger each other''

I think it was when I added a category and you said "I don't understand your intent with this??" or something. ^_^;;; Also some little bits that I noticed on the talk pages.

Something that just kind of... happened to me not too long ago (I think about a week ago?) is that I sort of gave up on the idea that if I try to talk things out, then things'll go well. But in the end, it seems like it helped me: by giving up on that idea, I also accepted the idea that if I say or do something, even innocently and in a way that wasn't meant to hurt anybody, there's still a chance that somebody will still feel hurt and lash out at me, anyway - in doing that, I also sort of surrendered myself to the idea that there could always be something hurtful that was said, and I started to expect that it's always something that could happen. And in doing that, I found that I could take the hurtful comments more easily. ^_^ It's really helped a lot with my anxiety. =)

But yeah, it also helps me to remember that anger comes from pain (something that occurred to me months ago and that I believe deeply), and like the book I'm reading says, if somebody is lashing out, then it helps to try and make them feel safe, as much as possible. ^_^

Yes pretty dramatic, that time I was still feeling very helpless and not knowing whats going on But I think we are on a good way, so I might be able to hold myself in future (hopfully).

I would appreciate that. ^_^

The gloss-talk was some time ago now though, I think you read it after we already started talking here or so..

No, it was before. ^_^; (Well, at least a big part of it. ^_^;  I couldn't quite bring myself to reading it in detail, but I at least caught a lot of it.  I don't know how much it might've been updated since I last looked.)

But yeah, I don't think it's too important. ^_^; Maybe we should just move on with it.

''"you mind if we sort of 'reset' most of those conversations and sort of start over? ^_^;;;; Metaphorically if not literally? (At least, where appropriate?)"

Yep. Agree.''

Thanks. I appreciate it. ^_^

''If its hard to find or look into my answers from the talk pages to articles, I can try to remember which ones we had open and copy the questions together, eventually rephrasing stuff I said, so its easier to take in. So we get some fast conclusions?''

Well... Part of what I'm hoping is that, since we're on better terms, any rephrasing of what you said before will be a lot less aggressive now, and it'll be a lot easier for me to take. ^_^; Same with me talking to you; hopefully my part of the discussion will be a lot easier on your side. ~_^

Reset yes, but don’t forget about decisions.

...decisions made before? Decisions that we might make after? ^_^;

Those talks feel now like balsam to my soul…

I'm glad to hear. =)

Imagine someone being curious and trying to read all that :D poor guy.

Well... I think if someone's willing to see what process we went through to get to this point, it'd be a good thing to look at. =3 If someone's really willing to read all that, then more power to them. XD;

But yeah, I'm thinking that maybe we should leave this - at least for now (maybe move it elsewhere, later) - as sort of a sign of what kinds of things we have been through, and how we have been working towards healing... and triumph. =3

''Also thinking about using discord again? Maybe just the wiki channel, but there many conversations can overlap.''

Yeah, I'm feeling more comfortable about moving back to Discord - maybe still not everything, though? ^_^; We might want to discuss what to talk about on the wiki, what to talk about on the wiki channel, what to talk about in DMs, and what to talk about on the Wiki Crew.

That is... if you'll have me back? 0=)

I want more wiki work, but atm pretty burnt out.

Yeah, this has been pretty tiring. ^_^; I've been going back-and-forth between working on the wiki (including here) and giving myself a break.

I am convinced that the time we use now to fix the relationship and get some “how to work together” done is time well spent.

Yeah... Me too. ^_^ Cyanis (talk) 01:19, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

-

"I think it'll probably be a long-running project (^_^; ), but I think it'll be worth it. I meant our friendship, but I guess that, too? '' The thing that brought us together is passion for Journey and that wiki. That’s why I am more talking about how to solve our wiki problems, the relationship problems are actually caused by working on the wiki, or?

''Imagine you founding a company -- > it just feels a lot like you're stepping into the role of "the person who knows things" and I'm "a stupid person who needs to be taught these things" - I'm not really sure why, but that's the way it feels to me. ''

You are not totally wrong here. I am getting the feeling though that you just try to resist to get how wiki-work is supposed to “work”. Not talking about the programming or formatting.

I am totally not saying you are stupid, stupid = should know it better, but does wrong anyways. If I do not know something, how should I avoid errors? Not knowing how to solve equation doesn’t mean one is dumb, they may just didn’t learn it ever.

My flaw was not providing you with the info about intentions of this wiki.

0000000

'''Disclaimer: The next paragraphs might seem a bit harsh. So in advance I will give you a conclusion: end is 0000000''' I failed in producing pages of stuff like that (see explanation after the guidelines): https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Minecraft_Wiki:Wiki_rules

Guidelines for the Journey Wiki: 
 * Keep newcomers save from advanced stuff (Glitch, OOB, Fancyflying, if not directly related to that article, also FPJ, zenjump), they may like to find out by themselves, exploring Journey or the Wiki itself


 * Guide users gently to advanced stuff. Provide links, so they have the choice to see it (put a warning or spoiler tag there)


 * Keep up the Journey spirit of “there are no mean companions”, like “do not lead first runs OOB”.


 * Help people to get to know how others travel and communicate. Saying “help them to be a good companion” is not appropriate, because everyone sees it differently. But there is a Journey etiquette to which many people stick to make the Journey for others also enjoyable. We will not force people to stick to it, but it could be helpful for those who want to know more about "how to travel with a companion". The variations are endless.


 * Common behavoirs should be expanded by editors with their own behaviours they show to indicate certain things (break, happy, want to travel alone, what are we doing?, I don’t want that..). Other Journeyers can pick them up or at least have better guesses on what the other might “say”.


 * Since most of the knowledge about Glitches/OOB/Fyling comes from longterm players, we would like to “honor” them by keeping the terms they used, redirecting other not so common names. Allthough this could lead to discussions about for example “why is zimcloak named after a player?”, because no one can be sure if there wasn’t another player finding it first.

'''Those are the most important points. Do you think we can agree on those and build the wiki according to them? '''

0000000

Going to make this our main topic now maybe? I d suggest that we talk about this separately on your talk page? And discuss other topics on mine? If you agree, please take that part here and copy it to your talk page with a comment.

Here now the part I am actually afraid of that you will read it, but I think it has to be said. It’s a reoccurring topic. After trying several times to make you understand (here we are again). It might sound annoyed, but its impatience:

''THE WIKI IS NOT YOUR PRIVATE PHOTO ALBUM!!! '' Good then, that after some time I found the better example: you do not come to an office work and start turning around how others used to work, without talking to colleagues first. The yearlong working colleagues will not appreciate that. Even if a space is public, you are not allowed to spray on walls and such. I hope you get the idea? Consider you were not a random editor, you were part of wiki crew and had all the chances to discuss stuff with us. That said, i repeat, we are passionate and i get that you didnt wanted to wait, also appreciate that you said you understand that it was not the best thing to just do...

Again, I am not the “boss” here, but I am a guardian and I think I got some responsibility. As the wiki was discussed even before it was granted by gamepedia. So '''some decisions where made in autumn 2018. ''' Some community members had input about how the wiki should be realised and that’s how it – more or less – happened.

See this here: https://help.gamepedia.com/Wiki_Guardian. “While in general, wiki administrators are no more than registered wiki users, who have been trusted with janitorial responsibilities, wiki guardians are also expected to be proactive in recruiting editors from within the game community, being active on forums, and/or social media. They are in general expected to take more of a leadership role while establishing the wiki than an administrator on a more mature wiki. They are also expected to be active editors, adding game content, and working with the community in establishing the wiki's "style".

If I would just “allow” every edit (aka don’t even have to check then) of all editors, there would be no admin to keep track of the content, check for vandalism etc. I guess there is a reason why a wiki has to have a guardian?

See below, you also ask me to not interfere with your work. So where is the difference? Do we want to build 2 wikis in one?

I failed in producing pages of stuff like that: https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Minecraft_Wiki:Wiki_rules

And also this is what we want to avoid: Quoting this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing

''“Disruptive editing is not always intentional. Editors may be accidentally disruptive because they don't understand how to correctly edit, or because they lack the social skills or competence necessary to work collaboratively. .. The fact that the disruption occurs in good faith does not change the fact that it is harmful to Wikipedia.”''

This is what in my opinion happened when you tried to be bold, aka what looked to me like “I want my own wiki, because I am best for the job”. Saying I am not qualified because of my English for example, which i saw as a poor attempt to cut me off. Wiki shouldnt become like politics please? no intrigues and such please?

''“Although editors should be encouraged to be bold and just do things if they think they're right, sometimes a lack of competence can get in the way. If the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may have to be imposed.”''

Here is also an explanation what an edit war actually IS: “repeatedly override each other's contributions.” Which didn’t happen. Correct me if wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring

You posted several times “don’t bite newcomers” , which I think I didn’t. I tried to get your attention to avoid drama, asking to work with me, not alone.

 Does not engage in consensus building: 
 * repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits;
 * repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits.

I d like to hear your thoughts on that.

Reason for not having rules up (big mistake):  after 6 month of no other editors I thought I will be able to handle if someone does something, that is against the unwritten rules. I ll just tell them how to do it “right” or change it myself. If I would have done all those rules and explanation it would mean I write rules for stuff that’s not on the wiki anyway.

The few edits from others were coordinated over discord, they actually asked to be sure everything’s ok. Out of politeness, not because they thought I am a mean boss. '''They knew that the wiki is based on some kind of order, which they don’t know about. '''

I also didn’t expect someone to come and try to make the wiki their own thing, disregarding that there might be guidelines to follow. It may have been my biggest mistake, not thinking about that  “no rules means anarchy” , everybody can just do what they want.

Topic here is also: being respectful. Which you ask me to be, so I ask you again, to be respectful to the wiki, see guidelines above.

''It seemed like usually, when we asked you to clarify, you would get upset and huff for a bit. As for trying not to step on each-other's toes when editing a page, that's part of what I made the Under Construction template for. =3 ...I'd hope that it could help fill that need. ''

Bringing up past again: Now go back to the last wiki crew talk, where I was supposed to explain my category tree.

I am pretty sure that at the start I told you all that I am ill and I will need breathing breaks and might even have to mute the mic to cough, talking is rather straining for me and the longer it takes the harder it gets.

'''So the huffing was me trying to not suffocate. ''' I am guessing that you didn’t hear that too. Correct me if wrong, but you did say  “I did changes on the wiki, that’s why I didn’t listen to you talking and also I think its not important/to me” or something like that? This was the moment when I quit the call.

I was first to talk, because the tree is already implemented. The talk was pretty chaotic imo, because we started to talk about several other topics, I think I was polite to not cut you all down and actually digging into those topics and not sticking to the presentation?

Could you tell me how telling someone that you are not listening, because its meaninglessness to you what they say, is showing respect for others ppl work? Its not only me having to show respect for your edits and opinions, mines are also valid I d say? Correct if wrong… I hope your opinion change meanwhile, but at that time i really got the feeling you want me totally off and banned from this wiki so you can take it over?

Right from the start you gave me the feeling because you are so eager to implement your things on the wiki, you disregarded that the
 * wiki is puplic,
 * that other people also got plans too
 * its not your project only?

On one hand you tell me, I shouldn’t interfere with your work (construction, which we didn’t communicate too that this means “do not touch my work”. I thought its more like an extended STUB. Because a wiki is public you cannot avoid that anyone comes and edits stuff into “your” articles. Correct me if wrong.).

On the other hand you are telling me, I got no right to say “there are things on the wiki that shouldn’t be changed without consulting me” . This confuses me. It makes me feel you want to make your own wiki. And i am not talking alone here, there was some talk before on how we want the wiki, so if you are the only one wanting specific things, i think its ok to deny them. I hope you can understand that.

I heard the story of a game-wiki, where they couldn’t get over a specific point and now there are 2 communities and 2 wikis coexisting. Don’t know about details here, but if we cannot agree on the guidelines it will be hard to find a common denominator. You might then need to create your own and it would be nice if you don’t copy form here then *hugs*.

(in short, about hugs you can ask Olig, this is not our main concern)

categories are open so that anyone can change them; you can't restrict categories without restricting the pages in them.) 

a category is a page, so you are restricting the category-page. Yes. I should have done that, if I ever would have thought of someone being overly bold and totally ignoring me.

And if you look back in our conversation, you admitted that just changing them was a mistake? So I think we can leave this topic for a while now?

''Like, one of the things that I think I mentioned once was that it seems like more-or-less any time someone had an idea to change something, you would say that, no! They need to understand why you did it the way you did! But the thing is, as far as I can remember, you've made few, or no attempts to understand why anyone else wants to do it the way that they do, and even though the rest of us haven't been working on the wiki for as long, I think that their opinions are still just as valid. (Heck... it's even on the help wiki. ^_^; ) ''

So should have listened to your ideas, before you got mine which are already on the wiki? See above in the talk you gave me the feeling (by actually saying so), that you don t consider my points of views as “valid”.

Also if you didn’t work with the wiki a lot, you wouldn’t know how articles are organised and which ones are really empty or filled. You also don’t know which ones I just didn’t create yet.

I did ask you in the past weeks to tell me what “basic gameplay” is supposed to be used for, why is there also a “core gameplay” etc. I got about 1000 questions too, I want to understand you plan, but not only after you already implemented it please.. ^^

There are many things in the glossary I would like to know the background / meaning. Imo we need to go through all those things step by step and depending on our time and willing it will take weeks.

If you refuse to explain your edits, I really don’t know how to react atm.

''And until we can get into a shared view on things... please try not to bite the newcomers? ''

I know I kinda bit you now in the past paragraphs, but “shared view on things” is exactly what I want too. We do need to explain our reasoning (at least when asked for). This is the ground work that should have happened in advance before digging in.

So all group members (2) can work out a “business plan”, so each of them knows what the other is going to do and why. Also working together on those plans will give us opportunity to share thoughts and pros/cons. If this happens in advance there is also no need to revert anything.

''As for trying not to step on each-other's toes when editing a page, that's part of what I made the Under Construction template for. =3 ...I'd hope that it could help fill that need. ^_^; ''

Mentioned above, the talk in advance here was missing “raving, going to make a under construction template to be used like that XX and in these situations XX”. Also lets say articles, because we agreed to not touch category-pages too much  (you were the one telling me difference between those).

Still, that template will not prevent a random editor from deleting or putting more stuff in there or reorganising an article, splitting them etc. Your advantage is: its only us. We can always talk.

If I d have little additional information or a link added to “your” article, I will write “please revert when not ok”, if its something bigger I would ask you in advance and hope that an answer would be top-priority on your next visit of the wiki.

I am pretty sure you would like me to do the same?

''It felt more like “ye whatever you did doesn’t matter to us, we got some nice plans here, listen to us”. ''

That's pretty much how it felt to me when you talked the way you did about my ideas From my point of view: We said I ll present first, so I think I got irritated when you tried to present yours while I was still trying to explain mine?

''I'm going to reference that page again. ^_^; (I only just found it, but it seems like to have a lot of good stuff.) ''

Same page:“Other newcomers may be hesitant to make changes, especially major ones, such as moving, due to fear of damaging the wiki (or of offending other users, or being flamed). Teach them to be bold, and do not be annoyed by their "timidity".” I guess you are not the other users, thinking about you could damage the wiki was not in your mind, was it? I am convinced you just wanted to help.

Same page: “Avoid using blocks as a first resort;”. Just posting this, because you also often use the gamepedia/wikipedia rule pages.

''“ Remember, the wiki may have a set of rules and standards and traditions, but they must not be applied in such a way as to thwart those newcomers who take that invitation at face value. It is entirely possible for a newcomer to this site to bring a wealth of experience from other venues, together with ideas and creative energy which, current rules and standards notwithstanding, may further improve the community and end product. It may be that the rules and standards need revising or expanding; some of what the newcomer seems to be doing "wrong" at first may prove to actually improve the wiki. Observe for a while and, if necessary, ask what the newcomer is about before defining what he/she is doing as "wrong" or "substandard". ''

I think I did already say that most of what you do is highly appreciated? And that we got only 1-2 points we didn’t even talk about enough, to totally disagree.

''It's possible that what they have to bring will go against what you already have - including whatever rules you might have - and it may turn out that what needs to be updates are the rules, not the newcomers' ideas and/or attitudes. ''

Do it get this right, you want to change the (unwritten) rules of this wiki? The intention of why it was created at first? Despite what was said before you were here? Just tell me if you think we can agree on the guidelines I wrote above or if you would change something there.

''I really think that, to matter how we do it, the changes are going to surprise someone, and there will be some relearning to do, but I don't think that should keep us from trying to make changes at all. =) ''

I wouldn’t be surprised about changes as long as I can keep track of them, be informed in advance if bigger changes are done and even when I splitted articles I have to rember that I now have to use different links to hint to certain information. That’s all natural. Of course changes are welcomed (respectful changes, not wiki-refurbishing with no teamwork).

''I thought that happened a lot. o.O It seemed like usually, when we asked you to clarify, you would get upset and huff for a bit. ^_^;;; It made it feel like all the pressure was on us for understanding to happen (at least to me). ''

Imo irie for example understood the situation pretty well. I am again asking you to maybe talk to someone (maybe even in pm, if you feel more comfy then) from the gamepedia help discord. They got experience on how to solve such problems too, maybe they can also help you to understand the situation. they should be objectivitly(?), like having a look from outside.

I am totally willing to listen to them, if they tell you that I am wrong doing. Because of history before, i might want to make sure the situation was presented right or at least give em my point of view too. thats only fair then i guess.

''I don't think an explanatory message will always be needed, but yeah, if we're replying to something that wasn't in the talk pages, at least. ^_^; ''

Its needed that we both learn what the other would like to be informed about and what is minor and doesn’t need the team. I don’t understand the rest of the sentence.. I cant reply to something that’s not on a talk page? Unless I do an edit just to leave a comment?

''What did you see that was hurtful? The glitch stuff? That’s another thing why we should take the time to talk in advance, so we don’t hurt or anger each other. -- I think it was when I added a category and you said "I don't understand your intent with this??" ''

Cyanis, could you step back like 2 meters and look at the situation from another point of view? Could it mean “would you please be so kind to tell me what this category should be used for? So I will know if such category is not existing already and also will be able to use your category as intended by you”

There is just not enough space for such talk. Good we agreed on having an own talk page for such things to clarify things, so I will be still able to edit at the wiki “in the correct way”.

I also accepted the idea that if I say or do something, even innocently and in a way that wasn't meant to hurt anybody, there's still a chance that somebody will still feel hurt and lash out at me, anyway 

Same on my side, I got a hammer on my head o-0

''I started to expect that it's always something that could happen. And in doing that, I found that I could take the hurtful comments more easily. ^_^ It's really helped a lot with my anxiety. =) ''

Lets call that progress? Scarfhug. Misunderstanding happen so often, I often sound angry/annoyed when its maybe just time pressure or my health issues.

''Reset yes, but don’t forget about decisions. ''

Decision we have to make and agree on (wiki)

''We might want to discuss what to talk about on the wiki, what to talk about on the wiki channel, what to talk about in DMs, and what to talk about on the Wiki Crew. ''

Yes that. I have an example: and I know you don’t like talking, but I would try to do it like that:

I scroll through the glossary and ask you about terms and you tell me what they mean? I just want to know some things (lets say sandfarer or something, which I think is actually something, that occurs at certain places in every oob, but I cannot be sure, unless you tell me. We got no picture for this yet, so I got no clue).

Like making a list of terms and questions would take weeks I guess and talking is still faster, also can ask more if still confused.. And we are using a lot of time for talking, that takes from editing…

In short: I am not blocking your ideas, its just hard to say “well go ahead” if I got no clue on what you want to do. And as far as I get it you would like to totally refurbish the wiki to your ideas? Use the official way or my/your talk page for bigger things that concern more then one page(!) please?

And ahahah I found this “If only two editors are involved, seek a Third Opinion.” We are the only 2 editors here. Some help articles are really made for huge wikis with like 5 admins and such. An active editor community too.

Going to kill some zombies for hours now. I really hope i didnt start another "attack to you". Not intended. Its like a last resort in panic and desperation to find a solution to our problems... :(

Ravingmadness (talk) 17:15, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I might add: I really hope the whole talking thing is not to make me say something that you want to use to get me out of this wiki. We could say you might need me as much as i need you? Hoping we can start "test talks for decisions" maybe, so you can see that i am not "against all and strict"? Give me a chance? (last edit adding this) Ravingmadness (talk) 18:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

-

https://help.gamepedia.com/Assume_good_faith https://help.gamepedia.com/Don%27t_bite_the_newcomers

''The thing that brought us together is passion for Journey and that wiki. That’s why I am more talking about how to solve our wiki problems, the relationship problems are actually caused by working on the wiki, or?''

I see it more the other way around; the problems with working on the wiki probably have to do with things like whether or not we trust each-other. ^_^;

At any rate, I think that they're both going to need to be worked on. ^_^;;;;;

'Those are the most important points. Do you think we can agree on those and build the wiki according to them?'

I think that we need to work on the reasons behind what kind of rules we'd want before we work on rules, goals, and stuff like that. ^_^; Not just 'what kind of rules do you want?' but 'WHY do you want these kinds of rules?'  I think that once we've found out what kinds of "Whys" are shared and which are not, we can start trying to work on a set of rules that works for everyone (I hope ^_^; ).

I have been thinking that it would probably help if each person who wants to work on the wiki (at least, you, me, and maybe soulfly) could make a list of what the want to do for the wiki, what kinds of things they want the wiki to provide, and things like that. And then we could all post them at once in the Discord wiki channel, or something. Then we can see what kind of things we have in common, and what kind of things we don't. And then we can start trying either working on sorting out what's different, or starting with what's the same.

If at all possible, I'd like us all to come up with something that we can ALL agree on - not just compromise. I mean, it's possible that we'll need to compromise, but I think that if we work on it, there's a really good chance that we can come up with a list of rules, goals, and whatnot that really works for everyone. =)

I like the way the help wiki talks about disruptive editing better: no matter what the situation - even if a thing that somebody does is clearly vandalism - try to treat the situation as if it isn't, because as soon as somebody even feels attacked, there's a good chance that either they'll run, or they'll lash out trying to defend themselves and their reputation. And then because they've definitely attacked, there's a really good chance that the other person will attack back, and so they get stuck in a loop that keeps going on forever.

The really hard part is breaking out of that loop once it happens, and/or keeping it from happening in the first place. =( But I believe that it's worth the effort. ^_^  I'm committing to trying to break out of and prevent the loops as much as possible, but it's going to take some practice, because the biggest skills needed for it are really new to me. ^_^;

Wiki shouldnt become like politics please?

I don't know if it's possible to avoid politics. =( There's something one psychologist said about drama, which I think also applies to politics, "drama is just a negative word for emotions."  IMO, "politics" is basically just another word for people having different ideas.  That said, the only way to truly avoid politics is for everybody to be the same - that or for nobody to have any opinions, over (or at least not ever talk about them). ^_^;

However, like the book I'm reading mentions, I believe that there is a way to handle politics without reverting to either silence or violence, and it basically involves breaking out of the attacking loop that I mentioned, and to help everyone feel like they can express their opinions without feeling like they're attacked.

How to do that is apparently something that's not very well known, but I am doing by best to learn it, and I think that it'd be nice if we could all try to work at it. ^_^; Will you give me a chance?

''Does not engage in consensus building:


 * repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits;
 * repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits.

I d like to hear your thoughts on that.''

I think that's something that we all could probably work on, because this is apparently one of those things that not a lot of people know how to do - even if they technically know that they should, it's really easy to forget about it if one is feeling like those questions, opinions, and explanations are meant to attack them. ^_^;;;

“no rules means anarchy”, everybody can just do what they want.

I actually don't believe that anarchy is always a bad thing. ^_^;;; The way I heard it "anarchy" doesn't mean "no rules," it only means "no rulers."  But the people in the anarchy do still need to talk about what rules they want to have, and all come to a consensus on it (from what I remember).

And one of the really nice things is, if someone feels like they actually have a part in that process, then it actually helps them to want to contribute, and to obey those rules. =3

So again, I really think that we need to all discuss what kinds of things we want to have happen, and try to come up with a new set of rules that everybody can agree with. ^_^ I, personally, am committed to try to make that happen; maybe then the wiki can really flourish. ^_____^

I am not blocking your ideas, its just hard to say “well go ahead” if I got no clue on what you want to do.

Aaand I think that this is part of the issue. ;;.;; The way it feels to me, the idea of a wiki - and about things where anyone can freely contribute - is that they're built on a principle of mutual trust. And one of the things that I've learned about trust is that if there's a lack of it, productivity comes to a halt. -.-; This definitely feels true for me; if I feel like I'm not trusted to edit the wiki - like I have to be "wrangled," or like someone has to ask me about every single thing that I do - then it makes it feel hard for me to feel like I'm a welcome contributor... ='(  And well... I guess those things are probably the same thing: being untrusted = more-or-less being unwelcome. -.-;;;

Also, when there's low trust, then it's hard to see anything said without it sounding attack-ish. -.-; I really think that before we can do anything real serious, we're going to have to resolve that issue. ^_^;

Though that said, even though I'd like to extend that trust by opening up to Discord DMing, I'm finding that it's hard for me to recognize if I'm resorting to my "Style under stress" (which is destructive) if I don't have time to think about what I'm doing. ^_^; So for the sake of both of us (as well as the wiki in general), I think that we need to keep this to the wiki for at least a little while longer. ^_^; Still, at the very least, I'll try not to be critical of your own edits. ^_^

I know it's hard, but... do you think that, in return, you can ease up a little on my edits, too? ^_^; Again, I know that it's hard, but from what I understand, trusting people on things - especially the big things - will often lead to them acting even better, and really help things to keep moving along. ^__^ Heck... not only is there a book about "The Speed of Trust", there's also a website on it. ^_^;;;

But yeah, I think that before we can actually start planning anything more than, well... finding out what kind of goals we all have in common, we're going to need to work on that trust. ^_^; The reason why finding out what's common is an exception to me is that I think (or hope) that it'll help to build that trust. ^_^;

And ahahah I found this “If only two editors are involved, seek a Third Opinion.”

Yeah, I've wanted to get PCJ in here. ^_^; I asked him before but, so far, no response. -.-; Maybe we should both try asking on his talk page? ^_^;;; Or if not him, then maybe we could ask Rebi, or someone? (I don't think soulfly has the time, commitment or, well, proper skillset to be able to moderate us very well. ^_^;; I thought he did at first but, well... not anymore.  -.-;;;  And I don't think we can afford to have a less-qualified moderator.)

I really hope the whole talking thing is not to make me say something that you want to use to get me out of this wiki.

Raving, I really would like us to be able to work things out, if we can. I want to work on restoring the trust between us, and I commit to keep working on it until we can achieve that. Cyanis (talk) 23:09, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I do not want to just throw out your opinions or everything that you've worked for on the wiki. I want to build on it, and I want the wiki to really prosper, based on the work of the two of us, and others. Cyanis (talk) 23:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

- I am totally taking some time off right here right now and will take time tomorrow to respond in detail (well actually not, because i am typing). Seems we are on a good way... the following is not well thought through and not on written on a doc before. just want to give some fast answers.

@ Politics: clarification, like digging up dirt and such to win a vote...

@trust i got trust issues, lookup fox mulder :) but i try to be open to everything as long as i dont feel attacked

@pcj maybe you could get an answer about "whats your role on the wiki here". imo its more like he created the basic stuff and now stays back as its not his work to care for those things and we should try to figure it out on our own. I felt bad even bothering him about joining the wiki crew, which was just so he can see chat in case its needed. he is a nice person and all, but not idk how to say. would need to look up what it means to be in his position.. imo its like "this wiki belongs to us and we need to work it out".

i tought about patrolling articles, and then.. if only 2 ppl there, whats the sense of those clicks? we could almost make our own rules since this is a very special wiki in many ways imo.. :)

-

''we could almost make our own rules since this is a very special wiki in many ways imo.. :)''

Yeah, maybe we could. ^_^;

Though... is it alright if we pause these discussions for awhile? Like... maybe a week? I'm finding that In pretty burned out, and while these discussions are important to me, I think I need a break. ^_^; (Heck, maybe we both do. ^_^;; ) Cyanis (talk) 07:38, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

- I am pretty burnt out too :) Will not answer in detail today, but will try to do tomorrow during day.

"; Still, at the very least, I'll try not to be critical of your own edits." uhm. no please do so.

how should i know if something is understandable or "right" (like its a fact), if there is unproven or wrong information on the wiki, if you just have slight doubts about the truth there or so, PLEASE tell me!). Mistakes can happened and i did many which i only found by going back to pages. A critical person would be welcomed, but please do not just rewrite stuff maybe (if a whole sections needs to be redone, not talking about grammar stuff and typos i guess thats logic?).

If we do not crossread our edits, i think it will be hard to improve things. Maybe you can get the idea of getting blind to things when digging deep into something? Sometimes i come back to my own stuff, read it and have to shake my head...

When finding such flaws at each others edits, we should try to contact and ask if its really meant like that, if the other person got maybe improvement ideas themselves and is hopefully open to listen to input from the other (about why this is a flaw in their eyes and how they think it might be better).

Plans for the/my week:
 * eventually adding clips and images i already got, so i can cross them from list. with some clips i actually would like to have a second opinion on where to put them.
 * working on the welcome page, adding more pictures there. Adding explanatory and "teasing" pictures and videos about flying, glitch and oob to both the expert mode article and the welcome to wiki article. Maybe
 * checking on the talk pages from last month or so to find and copy (also toning it down) the discussions/talks we started. will post that summary then somewhere.

'''is there a way to let you know "this is done now its here"? not that one edit vanishes in the list and you ll never see the summary then?''' Idk i d be open to a solution where at least you could ping me, if you need help with decisions or are not sure how to do best, simple question about something I wrote or clarification about a glitch etc..

Have a good saturday!! Ravingmadness (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Forgot to ask: What do you think about each making a top 5(3, 10, 50 whatever we decide) priority list of things "i want to discuss/being solved so i can go on with my work"? Like until end of week we could post each links then on the communitytalk page (or an cynis/raving-talkpage).

the idea would be to try to find things, were each thinks it should be solvable quickly (like "easy decisions"), just checking back on things (i feel pretty blind on the wiki rcentely :. If i ask "why did you do that or did it like that and not other way" its an honest question and not an attack. I want to know your reasoning behind things, guessing you are questioning my decisions sometimes too "why is it like that and not the other (better) way"?! Ravingmadness (talk) 15:25, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

-

I meant as in 'pausing these discussions altogether.' ^_^; That said, the point was to reduce stress and putting this on hold for so long is also causing stress, so... maybe I'll just do this in moderation?

And when I was talking about not being critical, I meant of things that we disagree on, not just when it comes to accuracy of information. ^_^;

but please do not just rewrite stuff maybe (if a whole sections needs to be redone, not talking about grammar stuff and typos i guess thats logic?).

Ah... what about just fixing a single sentence? Or two? ^_^;

Also, I'm fine with discussing major problems, but I'd really rather not discuss every little detail. Like I mentioned, I've been burned out for quite awhile now, and I'd really rather not do anything unnecessary to add to my stress. ^_^; Also, as Wikipedia's "Be Bold" page puts it...

Fix it yourself instead of just talking about it. If you notice an unambiguous error or problem that any reasonable person would recommend fixing, the best course of action may be to be bold and fix it yourself'' rather than bringing it to someone's attention in the form of a comment or complaint. In the time it takes to write about the problem, you could instead improve the encyclopedia. ''

Similarly, if you bring up an inaccuracy to me, I'm likely to answer with "So? Fix it." ^_^;;

But yeah, instead of trying to micromanage the wiki, or discuss every editing issue as we go along, I'd probably rather just fix pages as I run into them. I believe it'd be a lot faster, and probably around as effective, if not more effective.

Though that said, if you'd rather discuss major changes before I make them, then maybe we could discuss major changes that you plan on making, too? ^_^;

(Also, what counts as a 'major change? ^_^;;; )

But yes, I am perfectly willing to look for any errors that I can find. XD;;

What do you think? Would something like this be acceptable?

'is there a way to let you know "this is done now its here"? not that one edit vanishes in the list and you ll never see the summary then?'

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean like on the community 'to do' list that we were thinking about maybe doing? If so, maybe we could strike out (i.e. put a line through ) anything that's been done? Maybe remove it from the list after a week or two?

Also, I do know how to check a page's history and look at all the details, including who made an edit when, and exactly what was changed, so I don't think you have to worry too much about that.

Or, if you mean something else... then what do you mean? ^_^;;

Idk i d be open to a solution where at least you could ping me, if you need help with decisions or are not sure how to do best, simple question about something I wrote or clarification about a glitch etc..

I'd like to discuss this later. ^_^;;;

guessing you are questioning my decisions sometimes too "why is it like that and not the other (better) way"?!

Ah... would you please try to avoid saying stuff like this? =( Yes, I know that I think that my opinion is (probably) the best option.  That's basically how opinions work: someone makes an assumption on what they think is best, based on their interests and experience, until something comes along that leads to them changing their opinion - then they're likely to think that whatever their new opinion is will (probably) be the best option. ^_^;

But yes, in general, I'd prefer if you could avoid making complaints about my opinions and behavior... they're basically attacks. ^_^;;; That said, would you mind also trying to wait until you calm down before writing about something that was upsetting to you? I know you like to rant, but if you write when you're angry like that, then your writing is pretty much guaranteed to have a lot of attacks. =(

Also, I think it usually helps to slow down and think about what was said before you reply to it; maybe you'll find that you understand something better, or that you can read it in a non-offensive tone, or something. ^_^;; I think that slowing down and at least trying not to complain would probably help us both to get along a lot better. ^_^;

Forgot to ask: What do you think about each making a top 5(3, 10, 50 whatever we decide) priority list of things "i want to discuss/being solved so i can go on with my work"?

We should probably make a priority list eventually - and I think most of the other stuff you mentioned in your last post(s) is already covered by things I'm posting now XD; - though I still think that we should focus on trying to make a shared list of goals first. You know, the "whys behind the rules" that I mentioned? ^_^;

I've already got a list together that I think is ready for posting. Would you like to make a list, too? So we can compare? Cyanis (talk) 06:36, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

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Ah... If by any chance you decided to try to wait until the anger wears off, and it's still there, then maybe you should go ahead, anyway. ^_^; I think the biggest concern is waiting for the first wave to wear off, when it's often the worst (at least from my experience).

And besides that... I think after awhile, it's more obvious that waiting isn't enough. -.-; If waiting isn't doing it after a day or two, then maybe it's time to go on, anyway. ^_^;

Anyway, I'll keep checking back. =) Cyanis (talk) 05:35, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

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I will try to answer next week, atm i dont really know what to say and i want to get some things done :)

Also we got a new member in the wiki crew, they are very experienced in Journey and can help the wiki with knowledge and also some old texts from the forum. As everyone, they got a rea life too, so they will not be avaible all the time.

Ravingmadness (talk) 14:34, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

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Okay, I've been realizing that, even though I've made another step in working things out, I'm still not being as up-front as I probably should be - I believe that if we're to have a truly open discussion, then I need no be completely open, myself.

I'm also finding it really hard to wait for you to come back before I can even get close to bringing these things up. Feel free to take the next few days to think if you want, but I want to get these off of my chest now.

While I am dedicated to trying to (help) create a wiki, and a set of rules, that works for everyone, and I have been trying to learn how to work out different ideas that, at first, might seem to contradict, I can't help but wonder if we have ideas and goals that really do contradict, and so can't be worked out without some kind of compromise. I'm also realizing that I'm only willing to compromise a little, because my ideas are so important to me.

This said...

I cannot agree with the idea that we have to "protect" people from spoilers.

It's one thing to make it easy to avoid something if you don't want to see it. It's another to believe that the information is so dangerous - and or that the average reader is so fragile - that to be exposed to any of it by accident would be... a disaster, or whatever you think.

From what I understand, the average person does not like to be treated as if they're delicate and incapable of handling themselves if something goes wrong. I know I sure don't. I believe that if we try to "protect" people - at least more than a little bit - then it will drive more people away than it will draw them in.

'I believe that we need to get rid of the idea that there's only one "correct" way for people to learn about the "expert mode" stuff.

...because the "correct" way is not the way I learned it, and I believe that I would not have been inspired if I had learned the "correct" way. I first learned about it when a reddie kept on dropshooting to go on ahead of me, and didn't seem to want to wait (I was playing as a whitey). It bothered me, but because it bothered me, I felt compelled to look it up and see what was really going on - if it was a hack or something else.

I managed to find a random GameFAQs post about faceplanting and dive boosting. Searching those terms led me to the forum, which eventually led me to this wiki.

The part where I got excited was when I learned that these are tricks that anyone can learn how to do, when I read the GameFAQs post. I think that this is basically the only way that it would've worked for me: learning from something outside the game, that this is something that anyone can do. Even if I had learned "the correct way," I would've probably freaked a little, backed away from doing something outside the standard gameplay, and tried to look it up myself and learn about it before I was comfortable with the idea of trying it.

But to me, it looks like what's generally the most important, is when a player learns that there's more to the game. How they learn it only seems to be so important.

I think if we focus too much on how they "should" learn, then we're going to lose a lot more potential players (or even non-player community members) than if we focused on making it as easy to learn about this stuff as possible.

I also think that if we make this information easy to access, then it will make it a lot easier for players who do get hurt, like me. When they become equipped with the information, it'll become a lot easier to deal with the hurt, if it happens.

Besides, sometimes you need a spoiler in order to get interested. X3 I know I did, back when it was only on PS3. I was so excited to learn that it was coming out on PC... back when I didn't know that it was on PS4 (which I already had). XD;

But speaking of spoilers...

I disagree on what counts as a "spoiler."

I believe that only things related to the game's story count as a real "spoiler," and even then, my definition is loose: to me, a "spoiler" is anything that reduces how enjoyable the experience is (i.e. that "spoils" it). In that sense, sometimes hiding the information could count as a "spoiler." XD;

At any rate, I think that the "expert mode" content is non-spoiler - certainly not as spoiler about the stuff that's in the regular game. I feel that I would readily talk about fancy flying and stuff with a person who's interested in the game, but doesn't want to be spoiled on it.

In a sense... I feel that the wiki has it backwards. ^_^; Like the information that should be the easiest to access is the stuff that's getting locked down.

Though granted, in general...

I think that we shouldn't try to slow users down.

If they are ready for something, then I think that they should be able to go as fast as they want. If they're not interested in reading something, then odds are that they won't read it. But in general, trying to slow down everyone to try and stop things that'll only happen now and then is a pretty good way to upset the average person, and a pretty bad way to encourage them to do good things. ^_^;

Now, onto the wiki in general...

I think that we should clean up what we have before we add (too much) more.

I'm going to be frank: the wiki is a huge mess, and I'm not talking about just the categories, or the length of things. Individual pages have information that's organized very badly. (And no, I'm not just talking about your English; I'm talking about things like what order things are presented in [what comes first, next, etc.], and what is in the titles and section headers.)

When information is messy, it gets hard to read, and hard to really understand. I think that before we can build on what we have, we need to clean up what's already there, and remove a lot of what isn't needed.

I think that the sooner we have a clean wiki, the sooner that people would be likely to use it more. And to be frank (again)... why would you want to build on a mess? ^_^;

I still believe that we should avoid going against the Be Bold rule, as much as possible.

Every time I read it, I just feel so inspired. Like... I could do anything to try and help the wiki, and like I shouldn't let anyone try to stop me. ^_^; ...I will confess, it's been hard to do anything but Be Bold.

I made the promise to talk about categories before making edits to them under duress (under pressure, sort of forced to do something I didn't want to, or else we wouldn't move on with the discussions - or at least, it felt like we wouldn't go on with the discussions, and everyone would've got even more angry at me, and started attacking me even more), and nothing was done for me in return (I expected soulfly to ask you to make a promise in return, but... nothing like that happened).

In American law, this would basically mean that the promise didn't count, and I believe that rule is there for good reasons. I might be willing to negotiate a new promise, but it has to be one that's fair for both of us; preferably one where I get something in return. I do not want to work in a place where I cannot be bold. And in general...

In general, I think that we should have as few restrictions as possible.

It actually worries me that you tend to compare the wiki to things that often are restricted and closed off, like a business, or a private photo album. I mean... heck, if you scroll down near the bottom of any page - above the big part that starts with the Gamepedia logo - you'll see that the wiki is under a Creative Commons, Attribution, Non-Commercial, Share-Alike license. This basically means that it's a lot like an Open Source project, IMO; that people are allowed to take the info on the wiki and use in any way that they want (as long as they say that they got it from this wiki, they don't make money off of it, and they let others take info from whatever they make, and share it in the same type of way).

But also, in general, restrictions slow people down, and make it harder to do things. In fact, according to the book that I mentioned learning from, "A study of 500 productive organizations showed that peak performance has absolutely nothing to do with forms, procedures, and policies". In fact, both this book, and The Speed of Trust suggest that it has more to do with how open people can be, without fear of attacks, being suspected, or even attacking each other.

...Raving, do you remember when you told me that you didn't want to be the main wiki editor anymore, or something like that? I will confess, I thought that you meant that you were handing over responsibilities as sort of the main admin (who frequents the wiki), and that you wanted to sort of retire from the wiki, not wanting to work on it at all anymore. I actually went around telling others that I was going to be taking over a wiki. ^_^;

And you know what? It felt so, dang, AWESOME to feel like I was being trusted like that. I wanted to prove that I could turn the wiki into something that was easy to use, that could really grow the community, and that, in general, I could be proud of. It was really inspiring, and I just wanted to dive in and get it all done in one fell swoop - if that really was what you wanted... I think that I probably would have had it done by now. ^_^;

Instead, I've found that the opposite has happened... The more you talk about talking with you before making changes, keeping certain things as-is, and generally putting in more rules... the less I want to work here. -.-; I don't feel trusted, and because I don't feel trusted, I don't feel valued. And I don't want to work in a place where I do not feel valued.

I will confess... a part of me still wants the type of control that comes with being a wiki admin. But if I cannot get that control, then I still want to have the kind of freedom to edit the wiki openly, without any of me edits being regulated or restricted.

And I want that kind of freedom for everyone else, too, because I believe that it will inspire people to really make this wiki awesome. ^_^

TL;DR - I want to help create a wiki based off of trust, because I believe that trust is one of the main things that will help a community to flourish.

Assuming I haven't forgotten anything, this basically sums up what I want to do, and the kind of dream that I want to follow, in terms of having an awesome wiki. If you're okay with working out an agreement that tries to satisfy this, as well as everything else, then I am willing to work it out, too. I don't want to compromise more than a little when it comes to fulfilling this dream. If we can agree on a shared dream, then let us work on it together.

However, if this dream sounds more like a nightmare to you, then please let me know, and I will go my own way; you've said many times that if I want to be in charge, then I should make my own wiki. At the time, I dismissed it, thinking you were just trying to berate me, telling me that I was wrong for not wanting to bow to your leadership... (Yes, that's how it felt to me.  I don't know if that's what you meant, but that's how it felt at the time.)  But now, I'm starting to think that that might be what it'll really take in order for us to both be happy on this. If so, then please let me know.

HOWEVER, please take some time to think before replying on this; at the very least, please sleep on it (e.g. wait until after you've slept - AFTER reading, not before). If you reply too soon, or if you take too long (I'll say... the end of the day on a Monday, my timezone), I'll take that as saying that you do not want to share the same desires as me - at least on terms of working together on a wiki. Yes, I know that this is strict - an ultimatum, even - but I need to know that what's important to friends is important to you, too.

In any case, I do not want there to be "bad blood" between us. If we work together, let's try and do so civilly. If I branch off and create my own wiki, then I would like us to have a friendly competition; using the other wiki as a reason to improve the one that we work on, and create a product that people use, not to try and "beat" the other person, or anything else mean. If we go that way, let's try and think of it as a sort of contest on who can make a wiki that can help the community more. =)

...I will confess, that I really want to go that way, at this point. ^_^; (I have for awhile now... I've even picked out a host, and found out how to import pages. XD; )  I want to get a well-polished wiki sooner rather than later, and I think it might help to show you want I want, rather than trying to tell you over-and-over. XD; But still, I'm willing to give you one more chance to think on whether you want to work things out. If we can agree to work together in unity, then that's what I want to go for.

So, do you want to work something out, based on my dreams and ideas? Remember that replying too soon will count as a "no," even if you say "yes." ^_^;;; And yes, I plan on following through with this, if you reply before tomorrow. (I will check the timestamps, including the page history. ^_^;;;;; ) Cyanis (talk) 00:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

- today (late evening now) i dont feel well and i dont know if i am getting a cold. also i hoped on answers from our new member of wiki crew, but they might be not avaiable for some days too.

so i am pretty stuck atm, only doing some edits and images atm. also today i put links to our wiki on 2 older wikis (one from ausgaminguy and he is fine with that).

i am sorry i cannot give you more info and answers. its just a huge thing. Ravingmadness (talk) 16:53, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

"edit". maybe there will be a time when iriehana, MD, you and me can talk again. just a basic "hello" and "my thoughts and wishes" thing and we talk about the pros and cons of those ideas etc.? at least i am happy about the more opinions the better... and i dont want to decide things, based on 2 people (that often dont agree too :)). Ravingmadness (talk) 16:58, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

pff this is too much to scroll, cant we start a new wall of text somewhere.. just stumbled over this: "...Raving, do you remember when you told me that you didn't want to be the main wiki editor anymore, or something like that? I will confess, I thought that you meant that you were handing over responsibilities as sort of the main admin (who frequents the wiki), and that you wanted to sort of retire from the wiki, not wanting to work on it at all anymore. I actually went around telling others that I was going to be taking over a wiki. ^_^; " WIKI EDITOR doesnt mean WIKI ADMIN or GUARDIAN or? so please dont blame me now, for you getting it wrong. ok. sorry i can get that this might have been a big dissapointment for you, but you can read. i didnt want to have double the work, like managing the whole wiki myself. being farmer, cook, server and customer. this is one reason it was going on so slowly and still is :) Ravingmadness (talk) 17:40, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

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Alrighty. I guess we could try working out a day to discuss things, then. =)

Incidentally, since you're aiming to add things from other wikis, I should warn you: I hear that, in order to comply with copyright laws, if you want to use stuff from another wiki, you have to import the page, including the page history, meaning you have to uncheck the box that says "Include only the current revision, not the full history". I'm not 100% sure that I've got those details right, but I figure that it's better to be safe than sorry. ^_^;

Also: there are a few ways to jump to the bottom of a page, in case that'd help. One is to use the "end" key on your keyboard. Another is to drag the little... thingy in your scrollbar all the way to the bottom. Once there, you could just scroll up a bit to read the latest comments.. Sorry if you already knew this. ^_^; Cyanis (talk) 23:16, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh yeah, also: that was my wall that you left a comment on, over on the bigger FANDOM wiki. XD; Just so you know. Cyanis (talk) 23:18, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Say... What abound soulfly, or the other, new editor that you mentioned? Is there any reason not to include them? Cyanis (talk) 01:14, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

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I admit I didn’t read the last paragraphs from last time (too close at least) and now I just wanted to answer short, but well.., :D

''Alrighty. I guess we could try working out a day to discuss things, then. =)'' I d hope. We just need to wait for the team members to be ready :(

Incidentally, since you're aiming to add things from other wikis '''No I am not? Why should I rob things from somewhere?''' (sorry the bold, but wtf made you believe i ll just go and copy there? i invited that other person to work with us on the ours..).

I just linked our wiki. The reason was only that those wikis weren’t edited for long time, just coincidence that I came a week after you revived the one :D

And we talked about linking the other wikis to ours, to get more clicks and also ours is the fuller wiki… The other fandom wiki is from ausgamingguy and he said that I could take some text that he wrote, but I don’t think it will be soo much use. Considering what I wrote already, it’s a tiny part imo.

Also: there are a few ways to jump to the bottom of a page I use both methods, still, walloftext.

In general I d recommend using the
 * talk pages for stuff that’s concerning a certain article and this
 * https://journey.gamepedia.com/Journey_Wiki_talk:Community_portal for more general things.

It makes the talks and discussion about things more structured. Thats why the are there and how teamwork on a wiki can work. We can lookup what each said to a topic. No one wants to read our wall of text to find important information about how the wiki will advance.

*example*
 * “I want to redo the structure of all level articles /headlines, like the following. *add headline structure here* and maybe some words why its better”. I want to understand the thought process…


 * “I want to rename journey category to basic gameplay and make journey the upper category of Journey and expert mode.”  That I really want you to write somewhere (category journey talk? In your own words, since I am still not sure if this is your wish..)!!

So I at least know what your plan is? Is it so impossible that I might have to say something useful to that? Or just together brainstorm a bit and then change it? Also its easier for wiki crew to just send a link and read the discussion directly on the wiki.

What u say?

''... What about soulfly, or the other, new editor that you mentioned? Is there any reason not to include them? '' I didnt really heard anything specific from soulfly since the last talk. The new member (MonsieurDebris, oldschool player, pretty advanced imo) has electricity problems atm. Also i told her to read a bit into the wiki to get to know whats there and how (I) wrote stuff.

And that’s part of my work too: I am constantly trying to get people involved. No one wants to get into a quarrel.. and most don’t have too much time to do anything on the wiki.

That was my complaint to the wiki crew at start “I have to do everything alone and you just want to do cosmetics, while images and descriptions and many articles are still missing”.

I am travelling with people/watching streams, sending them links later and asking them to give me feedback since the start. Feedback happens rather seldom/none. Could you also try to get ppl involved? (preferable those that know about glitches and stuff so they can explain things or at least write something on a talk page so investigations can start). Iriehana was so nice to share her screenshots, so finally we get some pictures. Not sure when she will find time to upload, I already started with CS, we could divide that work…

Topic “it’s a mess”  It might help you to understand the state of the wiki, if you d add your under construction template to every article that’s “stub”. I am still “happy” that I started with basic content to give an overview about the extra stuff, allhtough it looks messy and is totally not complete.

Just reading that it helped you (a lot?) is some reward to all the nights I was sitting alone and breaking my head about how to do things, so the pc people have something to lookup. (repeating myself here, imo most was done in a hurry)

I could say your glossary article is a mess and we should delete half of it, since its copying the wiki together and also taking random terms from artists and unknown fans? As you saw, even those cosplayers (if it wasn’t intentional) do gameplay mistakes, 1st WR…

I do know how much work this article is, also thinking you putting too much work into that, but we should discuss this on another talk page. Since there are many things I do not know or understand and then how should a newcomer get it? Sooner or later I d really like to learn more of those other terms.

Also I thought of even commissioning you for some pics. Like we could also have “hint here” a WR pointing to something instead of writing “hints and notes” and such. Like 5 icons standing for a certain thing.. :) (and I need a tag for left4dead :P)

Have a nice weekend! Ravingmadness (talk) 15:11, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

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''Alrighty. I guess we could try working out a day to discuss things, then. =)'' I d hope. We just need to wait for the team members to be ready :(

Incidentally, since you're aiming to add things from other wikis 'No I am not? Why should I rob things from somewhere?' (sorry the bold, but wtf made you believe i ll just go and copy there?).

1) I thought I remembered you saying something about gathering info from different wikis into the Gamepedia wiki.

2) Because the three wikis use compatible Creative Commons licenses, so if we imported pages, it wouldn't be robbing.

No one wants to read our wall of text to find important information about how the wiki will advance.

I agree. That's why I'm not using this page to try and discuss how the wiki will advance; I'm trying to use it to work things out between us, and to keep things just public enough that hopefully it'll help the two of us to try to keep from being mean. XD; (Also: to slow us down so that, hopefully, we're able to think about what we say, instead of just acting in anger.)

So I at least know what your plan is?

Plan A: To get the entire Wiki Crew together, get us to discuss our different goals, and work toward a compatible, mutual purpose, that ALL of us can agree to: no voting, no coin flips, no compromises, just something that everyone thinks is good. To do this will require a willingness to try to trust each-other, and to be willing to try to come up with creative solutions.

Plan B: To try to agree to disagree, and then go our separate ways, wiki-wise, so we can all continue to try to help create a good wiki without disturbing the ideals of the others.

Is it so impossible that I might have to say something useful to that?

Well... the fact that you think that *I* think that it would be impossible does not exactly fill me with confidence. =( If you're assuming that I don't think that you could ever contribute positively, then how could the two of us do anything productively?

Raving, if you do not trust me, even after I've committed to trying to work things out, then how could anything I do ever lead you to trust me? And if there is mistrust on either side/any part, then how could we ever work things out together? How could we work things out if there is disharmony?

''Could you also try to get ppl involved? (preferable those that know about glitches and stuff so they can explain things or at least write something on a talk page so investigations can start).''

It might help you to understand the state of the wiki, if you d add your under construction template to every article that’s “stub”.

What I am about to say is not out of disrespect: it is meant to try and help you improve, and to try and help to lead the wiki to be as best as it could be, if possible.

I have a pretty good idea what the state of the wiki is. XD; That's the problem: the current state is... really not good. ^_^;;; "Messy" is an understatement: it is way more of a mess than just being a little disorganized; in some places, it's almost unreadable.

I don't want to just do cosmetic surgery. I pretty much want to rework the entire wiki, so that people can understand it. ^_^;;; I also believe that if we really clean it up, people will better be able to figure out what it's for on their own, and then they'll be a lot more willing to work on it, since they'll be able to understand the point of it. XD;

So that said, no, I am not willing to try and involve other people in a wiki that's in this state, unless they're willing to work overtime to try and get it organized - not just to do casual edits, or to fill in stuff without making the existing information easy to use and otherwise work with. Frankly, in its current state, I'd probably give the other person(s) a heads up before trying to link it to them. It's THAT bad.

Also: the Under Construction template is there for anyone to use. You don't need to wait for me to put it up. ;)

But yes, Raving, I truly believe that in order for this to work, we're all going to have to trust each-other, or at least be willing to try. And if just the two of us aren't able to work together, then how much harder will it be to get an entire group to work together?

That said, I am not willing to try to talk to the Wiki Crew, unless you're open to at least trying to learn to trust me. Otherwise, I will go my own way, and create my own wiki, instead.

Raving, are you open to the idea of at least trying to learn how to trust me? Cyanis (talk) 01:00, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

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Hey Cyanis!

First of all I think that having everyone come together to form a plan for the wiki would be beneficial.

Also I am curious as to what specific changes you'd like to make, if you could list some of them that would be great!

And I really admire how hard you both have been working towards establishing a healthier relationship. Just remember that in order to trust one another, you have to prove to each other that you are both worthy of that trust. As you both have been hurt I'm afraid being forthcoming and transparent about your intentions might be essential moving forward.

Oh and traveling together might be a good step forward!!

Feel free to DM me both of you, I'm not great at communication or conflict management but I am good at listening. ;) Irieh4na (talk) 10:11, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

- Just some short sentences. Yes i agree too, if we want to work as a group on the wiki, we should talk about our plans and what everybody thinks is the best for the wiki.

Also it reads a bit like you only want editors, when the wiki is already pretty done. Imo we dont need them then anymore. The people with the knowledge of J. that we want to add are vanishing over time. Refurbishing totally could take months, set alnoe having a plan for how to do it. There will be many things, that we didnt think about yet. Like when soulfly mentioned slide places or the shimmy shimmy. We have to think where to put these then too.

I think that most people would agree that they rather have a mess to read then a nice looking nothing? I heard that you said "its a mess" and yes i agreed already on that some articles or the front page is not as it should be. Many things are not as i want them to be. Could we work together to make it nicer?

Since you seem to know how to code, your help at this topic would be highly appreciated. Help meaning that i want to do something, but would need hours to figure out how. In that time i could add images and videos. It also means that you can tell me what you think i could do, to share workload.

Please share your thoughts and recommendations. Saying "i will fix it" is not a detailed "businessplan" :( Since i am mostly putting stuff on the wiki i really need to now first where we are going and also would like to discuss that with the wiki crew (people that are interested in Journey and the wiki. Since its crucial to know Journey very well to write about certain things, also to sort them.)

Currently waiting for the wiki crew to say when they got time to talk. What are your next open time windows for a talk? Ravingmadness (talk) 19:27, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

"edit": could you express what the mess is exactly? please dont say "everything" since that doesnt help to find solutions. just more specifics. whats the most annoying part for you? (i only see construction sites at the moment and ofc that what is not finished, is not beautiful and when people are working, there is also dust and dirt around :) and we will take on one site at a time and clean it up?). Ravingmadness (talk) 19:49, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

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''Also it reads a bit like you only want editors, when the wiki is already pretty done. Imo we dont need them then anymore.''

If you're saying that we won't need major cleaning-crew once most of the clean-up is done, then I agree. Once the job is done, then they don't need to focus so hard on it, anymore. Maybe you could have one or two WikiGromes stick around to keep things tidy, as little edits are made, but once the major work is done, the workers can go about other projects.

I think that most people would agree that they rather have a mess to read then a nice looking nothing?

Debatable. Sometimes no solution is better than a bad one. ^_^; One example of this is medicine: a botched surgery could be more deadly than whatever the surgery is supposed to fix. Similarly, a botched electric job could turn a badly-lit building into a smoldering pile of ashes (i.e. no building).

While maybe this wouldn't be quite as catastrophic, I think that having a small, clean thing would probably be preferable to people who already have trouble reading (or at least have trouble reading English), or who lazy at reading in general. Basically, if something is harder for people to read, then fewer people are going to bother trying to read it. Anyone who's only option to understand is Google Translate are going to have an especially hard time; if you know Google Translate, then you know that it has a tendency to spout nonsense, even with the cleanest of writing.

And if someone is going to have trouble reading it, then I think that they're going to have even less of a chance with editing it - I mean... how are you supposed to try to fix something if you're having trouble figuring out what it's trying to say? ^_^;

As Wikipedia puts it, "A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess."

...That page also points out that one should generally try to work in a language that they're competent in. ^_^;;; With all due respect, I'm not sure that your English is good enough to really count as competent. ^_^;;;;; I do think that, to some extent, we could probably make an exception for you, but you should probably allow us to mercilessly edit anything that you write in English - at least to reword pages so that it's easier to understand, though I would like if we would be allowed to generally revamp pages, without having to consult others about it, first.

Like, you remember the kind of changes that I made to Differences Between Versions, the Ancient Glyphs page, or even the Trophies page? Basically that, but to the whole wiki. ^_^;

Refurbishing totally could take months

I agree. Assuming we cleaned up one page per day, it would currently take us about four months. But I believe it would be worth it.

However, the more there is to clean up, then the longer it would take. I would rather get started now, than wait until we have more content to clean up - right now, I'm feeling like I'm not allowed to work on my 'to do' list while it keeps on getting bigger and bigger. ^_^; It's... incredibly frustrating. -.-;

Raving, at the very least, I would like to be allowed to make general revamps without having to explain all of my thought processes on how I want to revamp them. I can't even keep track of all of my thought processes! And you've seen how I tend to make major textwalls when I'm trying to explain things (heck, I'm doing it right now). I'm willing to try and answer any questions you may have after I make a major edit, but I'd really rather not have to try to explain all of my clean-up ideas before I do them. Otherwise, getting the job done could take years, rather than just months. -.-;

I'm willing to try and discuss other major changes (changes besides just cleanup) - or at least running them by you, but not this kind. That is non-negotiable for me. If you require me to explain ALL my cleanup methods before I'm allowed to use ANY of them without consulting you, then I WILL do my work on another wiki, instead, because of reasons explained above. -.-;

Could we work together to make it nicer?

I'm willing if you're willing, but only within bounds of reason. See: my textwall above. I'm willing to explain some of my general cleanup ideas; maybe then we can work on different pages at the same time, at least to some extent. XD; (I'll get to that farther down.)

''Since you seem to know how to code, your help at this topic would be highly appreciated. Help meaning that i want to do something, but would need hours to figure out how. In that time i could add images and videos. It also means that you can tell me what you think i could do, to share workload.''

Or, you could just let me work on the code, and you can focus on whatever you can do that you're good at, and we could share the workload that way.

Raving, from what I understand, you usually don't have every person trying to do every type of job; usually, you'll have some people doing one type of job, and some people doing another, with maybe some overlap here-and-there. When you hire a construction crew, you don't usually ask them how they're going to do it: you just let them do their job. And generally, when you have a group project - and ESPECIALLY when you have a business - you let the programmers do the programming, and the artists do the art, without them having to know all the details of the other people's jobs. They might need to know enough details to understand how one person's job might affect the other's, but that's about as far as this kind of thing will generally go.

It's called "Separation of tasks" (or "delegation" when a boss decides to give one of his jobs to someone working for him), and it's a lot faster that trying to have everyone learn everything. It also involves having to learn to trust each-other, and to communicate effectively.

I'm sure that if we go that route, that it'll take a lot of practice, and we'll probably make a lot of mistakes along the way. But, I think it'll be worth it.

(Also, if you're up for it, we could try practicing by playing this game together. X3 It's super-fun, and it also involves problem solving, and even requires separation of tasks in most of the levels, so I think it'd be a great option. =3  I wouldn't even have to ask anyone to buy their own copies - we can just use free accounts on Parsec - in fact, the game actually doesn't have an online mode, and the game creators recommend Parsec. ^_^; )

''"edit": could you express what the mess is exactly? please dont say "everything" since that doesnt help to find solutions. just more specifics. whats the most annoying part for you?''

That's... difficult. XD; Unfortunately, you've asked me not to use the only way to sum it up without giving a textwall. However, since you asked, I'll try to touch on some of the most-annoying parts.

Titles and section headers

Titles should be descriptive and easy to understand while also being short, if possible - the recommended title length is usually about 3-5 main-words, max (words such as "and" and "of" don't count), with as few exception as possible. I know this is often hard, but if you can just find the main point of the article, and try to put it in a few words, you can probably use that at a title.

Section headers can be a little longer, but you want to keep them from being wordy.

Avoid explaining things in the title or section headers.

ABSOLUTELY DO NOT EVER SAY THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR POINT IN A TITLE OR HEADER, AND THEN CORRECT IT IN THE TEXT BELOW IT.

You don't need a header before the introductory text (i.e. the text at the top of an article that explains what the page is about); the introductory text should stand on its own.

Telling people about things they might not know

You kind of have a tendency to come down like a ton of bricks when it comes to telling people, say, that the companion isn't an NPC. ^_^; You don't need to make a super-long explanation telling them that they need to treat the companion as another person "or else." That kind of thing tends to drive people away. ^_^;;;

I don't know if you've noticed, but one thing I'd been doing before you said to ask you first was to change mentions of "a companion" (with a link) to things such as "if you meet another player" - something like that should be enough. By just mentioning that you can play with another player, in game, and linking the Companions page, anyone who might be confused should take notice, take a look at the link, and find out that the companion is another player - in a way, it does the explanation for you. =3 And by keeping it casual, you can explain it, without disrupting the tone. ^_^;

Also, in general, just saying what a companion is should be enough to help get rid of any confusion. If you're really concerned, you can make a section called "common misconceptions" - this could probably be put at the bottom. Then, you can probably just put something like "The companion is an NPC" - and maybe add "It's not - it's another person playing the game at the same time", but probably nothing more than that.

Unneeded categories

(Should probably not go into detail right now. ^_^; )

Most of the rest of my complaints are cultural/psychological... that, and your poor English. ^_^; It'd probably be a lot easier for you to take a class on Business English... or maybe Business Writing in general.

That said, I actually would like to pages translated. Then I think that the wiki could probably better help people who don't speak English. =3 So how about this: maybe after a page is cleaned up, we could mark it as "Ready to translate" (maybe put it on a list?). Then you could translate it into German. ^_^ In general, since the community is so culturally and linguistically diverse, I think that a lot of players would probably love to try and help make the wiki in their own languages - or at least a language that they love, and are good at. X3

Also, maybe it could help give you something to do when you don't have info to add? ^_^;

''Currently waiting for the wiki crew to say when they got time to talk. What are your next open time windows for a talk?''

I'm actually going to take a break in order to work on my Halloween costume - I only just got all of the materials, and I have a party I want to go to in only ten days. (I don't think it'll take that long for me to finish, but I find that it almost always takes me a LOT longer to finish something than I think it would - waaaaaaay longer, and the exact amount of time longer varies. XD; ) Knowing myself, it'd probably be really dang hard NOT to make a huge reply to whatever I see, so I'm just going to stay off the wiki entirely - and probably even the Journey community - until I get it finished (or at least the main part - I can leave out a couple parts that aren't really necessary).

So that said... I'll talk to you later. ^_^; Cyanis (talk) 01:25, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

-

Start of next “book” 

''If you're saying that we won't need major cleaning-crew once most of the clean-up is done, then I agree. ''

Will not need if not a random editor “fixes” things. But I don’t see anyone coming, so that concern shouldn’t bother us too much. We still should keep in mind, that at some point we might realise that some thing that were good before, are not good anymore. Then we need to change it.

''Once the job is done, then they don't need to focus so hard on it, anymore. ''

IF!! Random editors come, they most likely want to add some information, not trying to refurbish the wiki. They might move some images etc. I don’t think they will know much about the general plan that we have in mind.

''Maybe you could have one or two WikiGromes stick around to keep things tidy, as little edits are made, but once the major work is done, the workers can go about other projects. ''

Its not a bad idea, but considering we don’t have too many things to do, that can happen automatically, I d say spare the time to setup this thing? I d rather finally have auto lists on articles based on Categories. (said this like 10 times already)

''Debatable. Sometimes no solution is better than a bad one. ^_^;''

Then the wiki wouldn’t exist. If a random editor wants to just drop an image or one sentence somewhere, doesn’t think/know where to put it, they are free to do so. We will clean it up then. Cant bite newcomers, for not having the full insight of the wiki, or?

Again we both want this wiki to go forward. And I really don’t intend to work the next 10 years on it until at least the basic things are done. It might look ugly (formatting), but anyone can fix that, if they like.

''One example of this is medicine: a botched surgery could be more deadly than whatever the surgery is supposed to fix. Similarly, a botched electric job could turn a badly-lit building into a smoldering pile of ashes (i.e. no building). ''

This is a good point I wanted to bring up too. In case of emergency I d try to save a life, rather then standing there saying “I think I am not competent enough, you need to fix this yourself, guy on the floor”.

So if you play surgeon, by “fixing” the wiki, without knowing how the community works, ignoring other people’s opinion on what is standard in Journey for us, not considering the little things we know, then you are doing a bad job.

Further down I ll talk more about it, but: most changes you did are welcomed. Just consider, that not everything might be according to community wishes or my wishes lets say.

So then a discussion has to happen. '''This is not a personal threat to you. ''' It’s a general thing, I would discuss those things with anyone. If everybody on earth would have the same opinion and point of views, there wouldn’t be conflicts and wars. '''Disagreement and misunderstandings just happen, we just need to learn how to deal with them without starting a war. '''

''already have trouble reading (or at least have trouble reading English), or who lazy at reading in general. ''

Not a big point, but you tend to use very complicated English. So we might find a style to write which is somewhere in between. Some stuff I wrote is more the style of “keywords”, thus words are missing.

''you know Google Translate, then you know that it has a tendency to spout nonsense, even with the cleanest of writing. how are you supposed to try to fix something if you're having trouble figuring out what it's trying to say? ^_^; ''

There are for example many Japanese J. players. Who will help them? To me English is still the main language of the internet. If I only find a Russian wiki, I ll also have to use google translate and have to figure out what it means.

Cyanis, if you have trouble to understand what I am pointing out in those texts, please talk about it and I can answer your questions. Then we can redo the texts, if you don’t understand what the point of it is, don’t change it (surgery without degree).

'''I always wanted help with expressing what I want to express. ''' I just hope you are willing to write the things I want to have mentioned, not just delete important hints, because you decided its not important.

That said, I d prefer if you refurbish long text explanations into a talk page and I can just move it to the article, if I think it still transports the message.

Ofc you can just edit the article, but please don’t feel insulted if I don’t agree and when i want to wait for community feedback on it (will copy to talk page and revert the change then. Apologies).

I feel I need to explain a lot, since even slight “errors” on my side are also mentioned from you. I am not talking about everything has to be exactly the words I would choose, it’s about the content of the texts, the information in it shouldn’t change.

''As Wikipedia puts it, "A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess." ''

That’s a good link… Please assume that I started this wiki with the best intentions and don’t bite me for not being perfect and not having a ps4 to create images for example. Thank you.

There it also says: “. There is no expectation that editors have high English skills. Minor spelling and grammar mistakes can be fixed by others. If poor English prevents an editor from writing comprehensible text directly in articles, they can instead post a change request on the article talk page.“

This is what I meant above, I could contribute the knowledge and softskills of Journey and you contribute your English?

could you try to fullfill these? In general, i think you should re-read that article.
 * the ability to communicate with other editors and abide by consensus.
 * come down hard like a ton of bricks on someone as soon as they make a mistake

I do think that, to some extent, we could probably make an exception for you, 

Who is “we” that decide above the head of the guardian? Just want to know. Sounds very generous coming from the person that got admin rights revoke by the wiki manager himself (I didn’t had anything to do with it, He said he will do it and I understood it might be a good idea at that time, since we all didn’t know how you will react).

but you should probably allow us to mercilessly edit anything that you write in English 

See above, as long as it still transports the message and doesn’t leave out important things, this is highly welcomed. Change it, but try to not change the content of the text, be ready to discuss if I or wiki crew don’t agree. I NEVER said “do not crossread my articles and improve the English”. That would be insane. I actually often asked for it, just nothing happened and they told me “you are doing a good job”.

''revamp pages, without having to consult others about it, first. ''

Remap I guess. That I would like to discuss. If it’s a single article structure, that’s ok, we can still discuss afterwards if i/we don’t agree. If you d like to remap the headlines of lets say “all level articles” or the general template for glitch articles, then we should talk in advance. Since its time and work to change it back or into a 3rd option.

Looking back at the glitches-category hassle we had, I was sitting more then an evening, just to put it in the right state again. So in some cases its really better to wait a week for responses, some brainstorm from different people (the more the better) and then decide on what/ how we want to change it.

I hope this is acceptable for you and that you also see, why I am so strict.

''Like, you remember the kind of changes that I made to Differences Between Versions, the Ancient Glyphs page, or even the Trophies page? Basically that, but to the whole wiki. ^_^; ''

At difference between version, good example for misunderstanding:  this page was meant to show differences in game play/glitches only. Not patch notes and stuff, I wanted to have those technical things separate. You decided otherwise, I just kept it and rolled with it, to not cause more hassle.

That article could also mention that maybe some fancy flying might be more difficult on PC version etc. Those things, lets say the expert stuff.

I still think it can cause confusion, since we have explanations about “disco wayfarer doesn’t exist on PS” and differences about graphics on the same page.

If someone with 3 journeys looks up the article they will be confused imo. I d totally prefer a page talking about the actual differences “this works on pc/ps” and a “technical differences”, if you get the point?

It may not have been to clear, but it was still mentioned at the start of the page. A community member for sure would have known and edited that article accordingly. I am not blaming you for not getting it.

 glyphs and trophies  Good examples for perfect editing! You added and did what I didn’t have time yet for/didn’t take time, nor the ability since I cannot extract pictures. Lets say I prepared the soil for people like you to grow great things on it. That’s with most of the articles. If people don’t know its there, they will not add to it or make it nicer (was my thought).

In general, I might want to talk about little formatting things, talk about putting advances stuff somewhere else, wording etc., again: its not a personal insult or attack. Its an opinion and I d like you to take others people’s opinions in consideration then. Nothing more asked.

''Assuming we cleaned up one page per day, it would currently take us about four months. But I believe it would be worth it. ''

Even more when I add stuff in between your cleaning :P If we have a general plan for the cleaning I d help with that too, so we don’t have a in between state too long. Since that could cause more chaos.

''However, the more there is to clean up, then the longer it would take. I would rather get started now, than wait until we have more content to clean up - right now, I'm feeling like I'm not allowed to work on my 'to do' list while it keeps on getting bigger and bigger. ^_^; It's... incredibly frustrating. -.-; ''

Same here :D my list is growing all the time. Since I decided to - in case of - just put an info fast on the wiki on the fly, its getting a bit better. Of course, this looks messy as you say, but I think that’s still a good way to not get overwhelmed. We can come back to our edits anytime, when we got time.

Depending on time and state of mind, I add information or images, work on formatting or “recruiting” new people, sending links out and getting people hooked to play journey :P

There is a bunch of things I want to talk with you or wiki crew about, since I am not sure which is the best way and that would really help me to get things faster done.

For example I got like 30 or more clips that show 30 secs/1 min of stuff in journey, from simple “overview in BB showing the symbol locations” to “my FPed companion is spinning”. And then I would like to ask “extra article? If not, what you think is the best article to put this”, “can someone write a good explanation to that?” etc.

I think adding those clips will add a lot to the wiki, since its not the normal 20 minutes tutorial videos, it’s a short insight about what this article is about. If it makes someone curious, they will read further/long explanations or watch long videos. (?)

Just one of many points, where I am not sure enough on how to do them the best way. Repeating, we need talks or articles where we discuss whats best.

''I can't even keep track of all of my thought processes! ''

Well :D I could say “with all due respect, if you cant, how should others?” :D I do get your point, but still, we need to find a way to work together. So at least I also know how the wiki looks or going to look like. Just so I can also work on it. Ok?

I made a whole TOC on general article design BEFORE I started anything on the wiki. So I started with just copy pasting the headlines and categories to standard articles (which are supposed to look all the same pattern, like levels).

Could you agree, that yours sounds more like a trying out, then a well thought trough plan? And as outsider (from your mind) I d say, better to have a good plan before starting to build a house? Since changing walls or windows AFTER construction could cause trouble?

''And you've seen how I tend to make major textwalls when I'm trying to explain things (heck, I'm doing it right now). '' Highly appreciated, the trying to explain!

''I'm willing to try and answer any questions you may have after I make a major edit, but I'd really rather not have to try to explain all of my clean-up ideas before I do them. ''

Just the general idea will do? Like if you have an idea on how to change the looks of idk glitch pages, why not make a template and post that under “dump articles” category with an according title “glitch article general look”. I am pretty sure I ll be ok with it anyways or just slight comments.

We got the same but also opposite problem :D I hope we can work it out, and as long as you can keep calm if I step in and allow other to discuss your changes, work according yet unwritten “community rules” etc. it will be fine. At least for articles.
 * I don’t want to add stuff before consulting people, but no one says something and
 * you don’t want to consult and I am saying something :D

''Otherwise, getting the job done could take years, rather than just months. -.-; '' Doing whats there, took a year already  and as we know, this is aprox 20-30 % of how we think it should be.

''I'm willing to try and discuss other major changes (changes besides just cleanup) - or at least running them by you, but not this kind. ''

I don’t understand what means “this kind” (major cleanup things? Since you said you are willing to talk after, calmly, I think its ok then..?!?!). Other major changes (categories and front page are my first guesses). You can tell me your ideas/wishes on how to tackle major changes together. The 3r rule might work for us.

''That is non-negotiable for me. If you require me to explain ALL my cleanup methods before I'm allowed to use ANY of them without consulting you, ''

If you agree on that you will undo your own changes, if we afterwards decide, that’s not how we want it, ok. I will not spend my time on fixing “your errors”, even when they happened unknowingly and with best intentions. In that case you didnt want to talk in advance, then you might have to clean up later. I hope this is ok for you?

''then I WILL do my work on another wiki, instead, because of reasons explained above. -.-; '' I think I said it before, in which book is said “friendship and teamwork is built on threats”? and I see this as threat. This makes it hard for me to trust and establish nice feelings towards you.

''Or, you could just let me work on the code, and you can focus on whatever you can do that you're good at, and we could share the workload that way. ''

Well, I might need your coding help to make articles look like I want them to look. Again also asking for some of your artwork, but that later.

Another point, if you add a bunch of useful tools and I got no clue how to use them, where is the sense? I hope in the future we will find a way to communicate those things too, like “what does extension X do/how does it work”. Meaning, I hope you ll not only do the coding stuff for yourself, but also help other editors (atm me).

''When you hire a construction crew, you don't usually ask them how they're going to do it: you just let them do their job. ''

I don’t have a resume from you :P, I only know that you probably got much less experience in Journey then MD and me. That assumed, a boss would have an eye on your work to prevent mistakes that make the house collapse or are against principles. I hope you can understand this point, because this is my biggest concern.

Also if I want people to build “my house” lets say (doesn’t mean I see it as “my” wiki!!), I d still expect them to put windows where I want them, not where they think it would look nice. The intention of the wiki is to make it according to the Journey community that exists since the very start of the game.

 let the programmers do the programming, and the artists do the art You are both on this wiki :P lol

''without them having to know all the details of the other people's jobs. ''

Yes and no. As we are only 2 its so easy to work into each other(?). Simple example: intro pages If someone doesn’t see that those pages got created, they will not link them. If we don’t know where which hint or help is mentioned or certain information is given, how should we properly hint/link to them? I know it’s a lot of work to lookup changes, especially if its 10 small 1 sentence edits. And those cant be communicated; the extra work wouldn’t pay if imo. I can tell you, somewhere?, when I did create major articles or wrote a lot to crossread etc.

Lets say I spend an evening on adding images for all levels of the symbols. So this work is finished, then I d tell you on discord “hey cyanis, just that you know, this doesn’t need to be done anymore. Implemented them fast, so they don’t show properly rn, I ll fix it later or anyone else (if you do it, I ll see it in recent changes).”

Its hard to explain why I think its pretty crucial that we watch each others work for many reasons. You watch my English, I watch your Journey softskills?

''They might need to know enough details to understand how one person's job might affect the other's, but that's about as far as this kind of thing will generally go. ''

Yep. I hope we both have the same details in mind, lets assume yes.

“delegation”.

A list of work for you will follow :D Trying to delegate since long time, again, I had no staff. People have lifes, like irie said almost 2 weeks ago she can upload images, I took the time to tell how, nothing happened so far. Cant blame…

''I'm sure that if we go that route, that it'll take a lot of practice, and we'll probably make a lot of mistakes along the way. But, I think it'll be worth it. ''

Agree

' ' (Also, if you're up for it, we could try practicing by playing this game together. ''

I had a look at a video of it. I get what you mean :D But I have to decline, many many people tried to convince me to play another game (other then left4dead, journey and starcraft), but they failed. I got some other games I actually want to play, but the recent games are too tempting. Also I don’t want to break my head too much with this game :D (reminds me of portal).

It's super-fun, and it also involves problem solving, 

I d rather put my brain into wiki work. Lets try that, or a journey. Also timezones and stuff. If we can play and maybe talk at same time and find a day/night to play. A short try might not hurt.. Also I get easily frustrated o0 rage quits incoming

'' Titles and section headers

Titles should be descriptive and easy to understand while also being short, if possible - the recommended title length is usually about 3-5 main-words, max (words such as "and" and "of" don't count), with as few exception as possible. ''

I got some titles that are like questions, to make it easier to find what you are searching for. As you can see, some headlines are rather mistakes or not well formatted, when there is a video description of 2 lines in a header, that’s ofc not ok or intentionally :D

Lets say, some headlines are like that because of the easy-going (?if this is the right word for it) style I wanted to implement on this wiki. Between fun and not as “strict” as other wikis may be. Since we also have a lot of fun playing journey and doing shenanigans.

This wiki should really stand out and since its ours, we can follow the recommendations or not. Other wikipedians might say “omg its 7 words, how horrible”, but if we say it serves the wiki, we don’t have to care.

And I decided at times in favour of writing as a friend not as someone with no emotions. Since journey is about emotions and that should transport through the wiki. Which is not easy to manage.

''Avoid explaining things in the title or section headers. ''

But then they are not descriptive? Sorry silly question. But we will figure that headline thing out too. You could start changing some and give me time to see what you mean? Repeating, its not asking for permission, its me trying to avoid extra workload for both of us. Changing 3 headlines/fixing them, no problem; switching up things in 20 articles might be.

''ABSOLUTELY DO NOT EVER SAY THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR POINT IN A TITLE OR HEADER, AND THEN CORRECT IT IN THE TEXT BELOW IT. ''

Lol ok.. as I said, this is “style of writing”. It makes you keep attention while reading. Its still not wrong to say its like a life bar, but since you don’t actually die.. We can change that somehow.. if its so horrible to you. I thought it was a nice idea.

Those are rather small things to me though. We don’t need to stick to every recommendation or “guideline for a wiki” from gamepedia, fandom AND Wikipedia. Not saying we should ignore them all, just adjusting and choosing which ones are suitable for our wiki.

''You don't need a header before the introductory text (i.e. the text at the top of an article that explains what the page is about); the introductory text should stand on its own. ''

I like my version because it shows up in the TOC, so when you browse you can fast choose if you want to know what is it about in short OR directly jump to details.

Guiding people to long wall of texts and 20 minutes videos, will seldom lead to them actually reading into it, just to find out what it is.

If it stands on top, its easy to overread it? I brought up my pros and cons.

 Telling people about things they might not know 

You kind of have a tendency to come down like a ton of bricks when it comes to telling people, say, that the companion isn't an NPC. ^_^; You don't need to make a super-long explanation telling them that they need to treat the companion as another person "or else."

Or else is in most cases “my companion dusted on me”. I read a lot, watch streams and those things happen and often we find out why it happened. It’s the decision of the reader if they want to follow the hints or not.

I am trying to help people to get to know how to get the best of their journey and also help others to enjoy their journeys. Idk do you enjoy being dusted on several times, because they don’t know how to travel offline? Them activating things, because they don’t know it will cause disconnect? All those things should be mentioned. In Journey you cannot force someone to do something, neither can the wiki. Its just hints.

This point is very important to me and we really need to talk as wiki crew about that. I am not alone here. The wiki should contain hints, so people can understand whats going on on their Journeys.

''"if you meet another player" - something like that should be enough. ''

It sounds like I am mentioning “its another player” like 50 times on the wiki? I think its on the front page for first runners and probably at the companions and wayfarer page, which totally makes sense to me.

Some stuff has to be mentioned double I think. Like a jellyfish being out of position, making the companion hover in the air “this hacker, cant play with them”. I would mention it in the Tower level under hints or trivia AND on the jellyfish article (if we have one) or the tower glitches maybe too.

The companion is an NPC" - and maybe add "It's not - it's another person playing the game at the same time", but probably nothing more than that. 

Now you are doing what you told me is a total no-go. Headline and saying opposite of it below. Sometimes you really confuse me. Like wanting less categories, while making a cat for the 3-4 maps we got. I am ok with it, but it wasn’t needed yet, since I don’t see anyone soon making more maps.

Unneeded categories  Ye we should talk about it.  In advance, just because a cat is empty, doesn’t mean its not needed. Especially the ones that are named after the levels. If it annoys you that some are empty, please go ahead and fill them with articles and images :P

''Most of the rest of my complaints are cultural/psychological... that, and your poor English. ^_^; It'd probably be a lot easier for you to take a class on Business English... or maybe Business Writing in general. ''

I ll try to ignore the constant sayings about my English, but at some time I might start bursting. I guess you wouldn’t like if I told you take some social skill classes? Ahem No one told me that my English is so bad, just you.

Expressing again, that the most complicated and sophisticated English is not the right to use on this (and other) wikis. Especially when we want people to be able to read it.

''That said, I actually would like to pages translated. Then I think that the wiki could probably better help people who don't speak English. =3''

Too much work to tackle right now. Also the wiki is almost not used anyways and I am sure the few people looking it up, will be able to read some text in English. Even simpler English might be better then a text where people have to lookup every second word.

Again: feel free to try to recruit people. Good luck.

''Also, maybe it could help give you something to do when you don't have info to add?'

I have a lot of info to add still and if we keep our talks to text only it will take years to put only the content on the wiki. Not talking about any formatting then. All this gives me the feeling that you really still don’t know how huge journey is actually and how many things should be described.

I'm actually going to take a break in order to work on my Halloween costume

Oh wow, what is it? I also took some time, since you also said you will not check or are waiting for an answer.

You might want to join the wiki crew channel again. MD has some ideas on how a talk should happen. Imo I d like to “force” people to give an opinion. If you say something and I am like “this could be problematic” and the rest stays silent then I will have to use the role of the guardian and say we do it “my way”. Ofc this doesn’t mean I will ignore you, we will talk about the pros and cons so everyone knows what its about, why should/shouldn’t happen like that.

I Might have a busy week, so I guess I will not have time to make another long document. I d rather tackle the irie images, they can be useful. Wanted to ask, if you want to work on the level articles? So if I upload the images you can go to the according category and check for nice pictures there.

Cu then! Again forgot the tildes :( Ravingmadness (talk) 16:00, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

-


 * sigh* I just can't do this anymore...

Raving, I can't handle the way that you treat me. You berate me for trying to stand up for myself, and for asking for you to not disrespect me.

I also can't handle all the rampant misunderstandings on your part. I feel like you're not even trying to really understand me.

I also can't handle the idea of being asked to hold back before you know what I'm going to do, or in trying to explain EVERYTHING - in some ways, it's like you're asking me to teach you how to Flap Boost when you haven't even mastered the Dive Boost.

I just can't tolerate all this any longer. =(

I also recognize that what I'm asking you to do is... a lot, given your current skillset - in that case, it's an awful lot like asking you to try and do an Infinite Boost when you haven't even started with Fancy Flying. It just wouldn't be fair to ask you to do something which you're not even close to being ready to start doing.

Plus, it's also clear that the two of us are just too stubbornly, passionately attached to our different opinions, which appear to be completely opposite of each-other. If so, then our issues will continue to be unresolvable. -.-;

I've tried to give you the chance of making the choice for yourself: respect me as a person, and/or let me go. You've avoided choosing either option, or any other question that involves you taking responsibility for your half of our relationship, effectively disrespecting by feelings - not to mention trapping me in what feels like a type of a hell. -.-; At this point, it seems like I'm going to have to make this decision for myself.

Raving, I'm going to branch off and create another Journey wiki. I'm not willing to put up with this torment anymore, so I'm going to end it.

Now, I'd still like us to create a good relationship, if at all possible, but I don't think that I'd be ready to do it right now. I'm going to wait until December at the earliest before I can talk to you one-on-one again.

If you want to work on your behavior, I think that Crucial Conversations would be a good book to read; it seems to touch on all the high-level stuff, while putting it in a way that's really easy for most people to understand. My version (first edition, I think) even has a quiz in the fourth chapter so that you can figure out which crucial skills you need to work on the most. (I'll note that they've seriously revamped their site since the book was written - the link for the quiz now directs to an add to take a seminar or something. -.-; )

Rest assured, I'm not going to try to do anything to try and hurt this wiki. I'm going to transfer at least a few pages - some of the ones that I put a lot of work into, if nothing else - but that's about it. When it comes down to it, I think that the results should speak for themselves.

Viel glück. Cyanis (talk) 18:39, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

- Fast answer. I would really like to keep you here, since you did some great work. It just feels more like YOU are not trying to understand, that i am saying i will most probably be ok with most changes. And in case of i think it needs to be discussed, we will do so. In a team.

I just thought before, what if you do an article and i ll add some images later. Will this mess up your idea then and we will be angry again? Or can we talk it out? Will you - in case of - revert some of your things. Will you respect the community. Those are my most important points and i really dont get where you problem is.

Since we are bascially discussing "all my work is mess". Maybe you can also handle some critique? Each individual has their on talents. Yours is flying (well i just dont feel like spending my time with learning the things. since you do that, you and MD could take over the flying part.)

I like OOB and the little things in journey and giving hints on how to help each other. So could write about those? For real, where is the problem?

Is it more that you just want a wiki for yourself? I then hope you ll have what this wikis problem is, no editors. Ravingmadness (talk) 23:42, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Also i thought we are actually doing progress. since you also said so.. ?!? I am even more confused now. So much time we put in those talks... :( Ravingmadness (talk) 00:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)